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What products are manufactured in this country? Nothing really, thanks to NAFTA. NAFTA was the best thing to happen for other countries, and for the filthy rich to become even more filthy rich, and all at the expense of the American citizen.

I hope the auto industry bailout bill comes through, because if it doesn’t, the only things this country will be producing are burgers and fries. But then, who will be buying these burgers and fries, if Americans have no jobs to buy them?

Let me see! Construction workers are from across the border. Big rig drivers are from across the border. Cars are from other countries. When I call someone about a bill question, the person is from some other country. I can tell because of the deep accent. When I buy some household item, it’s from China. When I buy a dress, it’s from every other country BUT America!

Now, I’ll have to pay Time Warner via my American Express to save ONE WHOLE DOLLAR, because they say they want to save the trees!! How many people will now lose their jobs because of this?


1. How in the world did we Americans allow this to happen?!?

2. I don’t understand: Why a bailout for Wall Street, and why such a fuss against the auto industry getting one?

3. Thoughts on NAFTA?




"The Right Of The People To Keep and
Bear Arms, Shall Not Be infringed."!


( 40 comments — Leave a comment )
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Dec. 8th, 2008 08:24 pm (UTC)
Apparently we've learned nothing over the years...
Empires fall...the end.

on to the next chapter of this thing we call history...

Dec. 8th, 2008 08:49 pm (UTC)
Re: Apparently we've learned nothing over the years...
How scary and sad!
Dec. 8th, 2008 08:28 pm (UTC)
Let's see.

1. I'll sit back and let everyone else do this one. It's such a big, rich tapestry that nobody will be able to give you the whole truth.

2. It was stupid to bail out the banks. Understand that I don't defend that.

As for the auto makers, their current practices (I primarily blame unions, although inept management has a lot to do with it) are causing them to fail. If you bail them out now, then they will keep doing what they're doing. It's a neverending cycle, bail out a company and watch it continue its self-destructive cycle.

3. How old are you, anyway? Are you old enough to remember when NAFTA was implemented? Discussion relies entirely on your answer...

4. Depression? It's possible, and long overdue if I may say so. I just hope that it's manageable, and that Obama learns quickly that taxing people into oblivion won't prevent one.
Dec. 8th, 2008 08:48 pm (UTC)
Noooooo...Don''t blame the....
I think it was stupid, too, but NOOOO don’t blame the Unions!! Without Unions, American’s are treated as SLAVES!

I am well aware of NAFTA, since I live in a border city. There’s this GIANT GHOST warehouse next to the freeway that use to manufacture Levi’s. All those workers have lost their jobs. Thanks to NAFTA, 1000’s upon 1,000’s of MAQUILLADORAS have been created in Juarez. MOST El Pasoans are AGAINST NAFTA.

It will take many miracles for Obama to fix the mess that’s been created by this present administration. I do believe we will be going into one that will be far worse than the one of the 30’s. I pray I’m wrong.
Re: Noooooo...Don''t blame the.... - uglyface2 - Dec. 9th, 2008 04:40 pm (UTC) - Expand
Dec. 8th, 2008 08:35 pm (UTC)
Well if you recall there were a number of people against the Wall Street Bailout and rightfully so.

American cars have generally been behind the curve for years. There's a reason why many people don't buy them.

Capitalism works both ways. Meaning CEOs shouldn't be rewarded for poor business practices.

And if we're in the business of handing out bailouts, why don't they use that money to keep people from losing their homes? Or forgive college loans?

Instead of just helping the rich why don't we help the people who genuinely need it?
Dec. 8th, 2008 09:09 pm (UTC)
How my brothers and I wish the government had bailed us out when we lost that investment house we recently lost!

Why are American cars so inferior? Why weren't they made like Toyota's for example? If America sent a man to the moon, why couldn't we have made the best cars in the world? I just don't understand this.
Dec. 8th, 2008 08:35 pm (UTC)
First off, the problem is not NAFTA. The problem is Walmart and putting price over quality.

    1. We wanted cheaper crap
    2. We came to believe that CxOs deserved ridiculously high pay
    3. We let executives fatten their wallets at the expense of the working man's pay
    4. We turned our backs on quality
    5. We turned our backs on personal responsibility
    6. We turned a blind eye to companies shipping jobs overseas because we wanted cheaper crap
    7. We turned our backs on thrift and began to live on credit and justified it by saying "Well, the government does it."
    8. We let ourselves get lulled into a false sense of security by listening to reports of the cost of living when the items used to judge the cost haven't changed in decades, but what makes up "living" in the U.S. has changed drastically.

  1. You have a short memory. People were against the Wall Street bailout and still are. It was just that the Wall Street issues had an immediate and very visible effect so people caved.
  2. NAFTA was not good for working class Americans. It also kind of sucked for Canadians. The only people who really won from it were the Mexicans, and all they got were more jobs.
Dec. 8th, 2008 09:03 pm (UTC)
1. You're right.

2. You're right about Walmart, but NAFTA has had much to do with loss of jobs.

3. You are absolutely RIGHT!

4. I sure didn't. I buy at 2nd hand stores quality at its best!

5. We sure did. We're assholes!

6. Yes. The maquilladora employees in Juarez are truly slave workers!

7. You're right, but I for one didn't do this. If I can't afford it, I don't buy.

No Sweety Pie! The Mexican's got NUTTIN!! They work for inhumane hours for something like $5.00 a DAY. The company FAT CAT owners are the ones making a KILLING.

One good thing about all this is, that jobs that have been sent to Mexico, we El Pasoans get to see it spent in El Paso. Were it not for Juarez, this would be a ghost town. If you go to Sam's, etc., you see the majority of the cars with Chihuahua license plates. There are also many rich families in Juarez that buy very expensive stuff from our very expensive shops. The very poor people from Juarez are the ones who keep down town alive.

Now, every job that has sent to China or Japan, we DO NOT SEE A PENNY SPENT HERE!!

All in all, if it weren't for Ft. Bliss AND Juarez, Mexico, this city would totally DIE!

(no subject) - davev1968 - Dec. 9th, 2008 02:05 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Dec. 31st, 2008 09:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
Dec. 8th, 2008 08:42 pm (UTC)
lots and LOTS of software is made here...

and most SERIOUS chip design is done here ( the engineering )
Dec. 8th, 2008 09:06 pm (UTC)
Re: Software....
Heil Steve Jobs!!

I'd like to see the Japanese make one of him!!

Re: Software.... - playgirl - Dec. 8th, 2008 09:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Software.... - kayakman - Dec. 8th, 2008 10:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Software.... - davev1968 - Dec. 9th, 2008 02:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Software.... - davev1968 - Dec. 9th, 2008 02:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
Dec. 8th, 2008 09:13 pm (UTC)
NAFTA FUCKED the farmers of Mexico. Any asshat who bitches about Mexicans coming up here but supports NAFTA should be bitchslapped with a large trout.

NAFTA flooded Mexico with cheap corn. Mexico gave the world corn, and used to be one of the largest corn exporters in the world. We took away farmer's abilities to grow food and sustain their families. NAFTA is a horrible piece of legislation and ruins families on both sides of the border.

Dec. 31st, 2008 09:30 pm (UTC)
I, as the majority of El Pasoan's, since we've been hit badly, agree that NAFTA was a major cause for so many lost jobs.
Dec. 8th, 2008 09:19 pm (UTC)
NAFTA, in concept, seemed like a good idea. It would solve several problems. It would increase the number of jobs in Mexico [I'm using Mexico as an example as it is the closest neighbor that NAFTA most dramatically affected]. It would increase the standard if living in Mexico, and in many cases help American businesses. The problem is some of the provisions in NAFTA did not have teeth or were ignored. NAFTA included that workers in Mexico had to have a higher minimum wage, better working conditions, shorter hours, no child labor, etc.

The idea was that we could not reduce benefits and pay for our workers, but if we brought other nations up to our standards, labor costs would be the same and our businesses could compete on even footing. It was also the idea that by raising the standard of living in other countries we would get less illegal immigration.

And finally, NAFTA got rid of a lot of trade restrictions so it supposedly lowered the cost of products for all the parties involved.

As for the auto makers, they are hobbled by past labor agreements. I've read that 60% of what you pay for a GM car goes to medical benefits for it's employees. The cost of labor for the big three auto makers are far higher than their competitors. This is why some people feel a limited bankruptcy, so the courts can go in and modify those agreements, would be the best thing for the businesses.

I don't know if the automakers should get a bailout or not. We need to find someway to preserve the automakers jobs, but if we bail them out they will still be hobbled by labor agreements that keep them from being competitive. But if we don't bail them out, the bankruptcy will mean they auto makers will not be able to get credit, they will default on debts to many other businesses and it might cause a ripple affect of smaller suppliers failing.

Dec. 8th, 2008 10:09 pm (UTC)
I speak of El Paso, because NAFTA affected this city terribly. Clothing manufacturing was a good way of people without college educations to work and support with dignity their families. When NAFTA came about, all those jobs were sent to Juarez, Mexico, leaving so many Americans without jobs. Many of these families had no choice but to become welfare recipients, since they had no other skills. The people, who work these jobs in Mexico, make so little money that make it impossible for them to make ends meet, even with both husband and wife working. This is one of the reasons so many Mexican girls were murdered, because of the long late hours. They would have to go home in the dark, and the murderers knew this, making it easy to abduct and murder them.

As for American truckers, they make slave wages due to the fact that companies here use truckers from Mexico. I have a friend whose dad had been a trucker for years, making a very good salary, but he had to finally quit that job, because the wages came down so low, that it made it impossible for him to raise a family. Did you know that if a trucker's rig breaks down, he has to wait for someone to come and fix the truck? Sometimes it takes hours upon hours for it to be fixed, and the man makes ZERO money, because he only gets paid when the wheels are rolling!! If he makes it to his destination, but gets there on a Friday when the place has closed for the weekend, he has to wait those 2 days without pay!

Now, I've heard some rumor that truck drivers may be able to travel all over this country, which will totally cause further destruction to the American trucker!

I feel NAFTA is one of the many reasons greatly responsible for the mess this country is in now.
(no subject) - adameros - Dec. 8th, 2008 10:14 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Dec. 10th, 2008 07:12 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - donchep - Dec. 9th, 2008 03:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Dec. 10th, 2008 07:01 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - tigron_x - Dec. 15th, 2008 09:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
Dec. 8th, 2008 09:46 pm (UTC)
It's all crazy...

*love and hugs*
Dec. 8th, 2008 09:51 pm (UTC)
I believe that things will indeed get worse before they get better. But I also believe that Obama has a real handle on our economic crisis. Most companies are screaming to be bailed out not because they really need it but because the management of those companies may have to cut back on their perks. Congress and the new administration have both finally recognized this fact and are telling them "No Way!" I think this is a good thing. We as a nation are in an unusual position in that the rest of the world really do want us to have a strong economy. Because when we don't they suffer. They suffer a great deal more than we do. So I expect to see the price of oil keep dropping and supplies becoming more abundant. The Arab Cartels put the squeeze on us but they don't want us out of business. The closest economy to ours is China and they have so many restrictions on doing business with them that again the rest of the world would rather do business with us. So I think there will be some bailing out. I think some companies may very well go under. But in the long run I expect to see us become stable again before July of next year. Our resources and our economy have been abused for several years by greedy people and now it is time to pay the piper. In the past the public has always been the one to pay but this time it looks like congress is asking the piper to return some of those ill gotten gains. Don't panic. If it gets really bad I'll sell my home and you can rent me a room. LOL
Dec. 8th, 2008 11:17 pm (UTC)
1. How in the world did we Americans allow this to happen?!?

We live in a propaganda state. Propaganda is to democracy what violence is to totalitarianism: a way to get the masses to go along with what the elites of the society want to happen.

But as far as an explanation of the mechanics of how it all went 'splodey, I'd recommed The Greed Game from the BBC.

2. I don’t understand: Why a bailout for Wall Street, and why such a fuss against the auto industry getting one?

Wall Street: Because the rich and powerful elites of this society don't get that way by allowing themselves to go broke. That's for the lower order of the society. It's called "Socialism for the rich, market discipline for everyone else". Don't believe that hard-work-&-bootstraps-leads-to-riches mythology they peddle. Horatio Alger was bullshit then & is bullshit now.

Auto Industry: The argument for is that those industries employ tens of thousands of people directly and hundreds of thousands indirectly though those who supply them, as well as the communities that rely on the jobs that come from those industries.

The argument against is that Detroit has so mismanaged their industry while churned out gas-hogging SUVs, that fuck 'em. They're run Detroit into the ground, and now that the ground is rushing up at them they want the taxpayer to cover their losses.

Basic modern capitalism: profits a privatized, costs (known as "externalities") are socialized. This is why, over and over, when things are good, the top tiers rake it in. When things turn south, the rest of us pick up the tab for the top tiers of society their excesses.

I kinda think that the auto industry is doomed in this country, but keeping it on life support for a while might not be a waste of money if it buys time to shift people into some other form of productive economic activity. Plus, the rich people at the top of the industry want to stay rich. Only suckers rely on the market vagaries. That for the lower orders.

3. Thoughts on NAFTA?

NAFTA is the first stage of the planned North American Union. Like Europe, one borderless community from Mexico to Canada, coordinated laws (bye-bye US Constitution), and a united currency, The Amero


I smell a devalued currency not backed by anything other than government fiat. The penny is already worth less than the raw metal it's made of. After the tidal wave of hyper-inflation scourges the American econoscape, we're going to have to turn in our worthless dollars for Ameros at whatever exchange rate the Gov & the private banks decide.

Maybe that's not what's going to happen. but I can smell it.
Dec. 9th, 2008 02:46 am (UTC)
Stop Buying Foreign Crap when you can buy USA
This is a funny but true video!

Dec. 31st, 2008 09:36 pm (UTC)
Re: Stop Buying Foreign Crap when you can buy USA
Thank you for sharing the video.

So true!!
Dec. 9th, 2008 12:44 pm (UTC)
The answer to all your questions.
Dec. 31st, 2008 09:24 pm (UTC)
You're so right!!
Dec. 10th, 2008 05:43 am (UTC)
Well if I remember NAFTA appeared on Clinton's shift. Again the politicians thought it would be a great idea to send jobs overseas.

Greed is the root cause of most of our problems in this country and I doubt they will ever go away.

A deep recession maybe depression, but I hope not. The housing crisis still has 2 more years before bottom no matter what the talking heads say. Nothing good will happen before that bottom, you can be sure of that.

We have learned little from past mistakes and the country will continue to make them over and over. Each time THEY say this time it is different. NOT...

Get ammunition and keep your guns loaded...
Dec. 15th, 2008 09:32 pm (UTC)
    1. How in the world did we Americans allow this to happen?!?

Allow what to happen exactly? A shift in industry in America? America use to be predominately agricultural. Then the industrial revolution took off in the late 18, early 19th centuries, starting in Britain, which started a chain of events around the world that eventually prompted the American Civil War. In the end, after Reconstruction, America became predominately industrial.

And today, in an age of constant economical conquest waged by various nations, you have the financial revolution going on.

He who controls the flow of currency controls the markets, i.e. controls trade, thus controling the standard of living within a nation.

What we might see in the upcoming year, 2009, is a crumbling Euro, and Russia flexing military might to regain influence in Europe and becoming competitve with America again. Our success in Iraq has prompted this.

    2. I don’t understand: Why a bailout for Wall Street, and why such a fuss against the auto industry getting one?

Wall Street once was the place where everyone went to gain finances which allowed companies to leverage their assets for greater profit. Howevever, now that the entire financial sector needs to be revamped, Capital Hill is the new Wall Street for the time being. This basically allows the big wheel to keep turning, i.e. globalization continues, trade continues, manufacturing continues -- though, these sectors/industries are not booming, they're just trucking along.

And, generally speaking, the auto industry today is what the cotton industry was in the mid to late 19th century. Such a sector in our domestic economy is becoming outdated simply because there is a vast amount of human resource available in other nations.

The upcoming industries in our domestic economy are international business management or consulting, energy & waste management, and financing.

If Barak Obama backs energy & waste management, then we have the ability to gain a strong position in the world market. In other words, as America becomes less-and-less dependent on fossil fuels, then American industries can sell off its holdings and accumulate wealth else where.

    3. Thoughts on NAFTA?

It's messy, but it allows for globalization. Though, it puts our sovereignty at risk.


As I've said before, it's an economy of opportunity. Find stable ground and start trading.
(Deleted comment)
Dec. 31st, 2008 09:19 pm (UTC)
Thank you so much!

May you have a Happy and prosperous New Year!
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