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I stole this from [info]donchep

"Today is the anniversary of the death of Lance Corporal Jose Gutierrez. He was the first combat casualty in Iraq. Jose Gutierrez was a young man of 22. Father to his younger siblings. Loved the United States and dreamt of the things he would do in this country after serving in the Corps. A true patriot through and through.

Oh yeah, I forgot. He came here from Guatemala *ILLEGALLY*

I dedicate this to Charlie Daniels, Tom Tancredo, Arnold Schwarzenegger and the Minutemen who , as their type claim, won their right to their opinions from the spilled blood of the men and women in uniform like Jose Gutierrez."


donchep, men like Gutierrez (a war hero) are rare and few, because he joined the Armed Forces and became a citizen. I'm so sorry Lance Corporal Jose Gutierrez lost his life fighting for our country, and my heart goes out to him and his loved ones!

But sadly, all of those who are here in this country illegally are criminals, because they broke the law the moment they entered this country without going through the proper channels. It isn't fair to the American citizen, nor is it fair to those who are attempting to enter this country through those proper channels which are required by our laws.

MANY are here illegally, sucking the system dry, and it angers me beyond belief. Forgive me for this, but since I live a skip and a holler from the border, this is as I see it, and I have seen it with my own two eyes.

Another thing, how nice it would be for the multitude of those illegally in the United States of America, whether they be come from Mars, Venus or Timbuctwo, to someday learn to speak the English language.

If anyone would like to add their input to this topic, please do it in an adult manner.



Playgirl's All Pumped Up


Join The NRA

"The Right Of The People To Keep and
Bear Arms, Shall Not Be infringed."

Comments

( 58 comments — Leave a comment )
dagulfsghost
Mar. 22nd, 2007 10:35 pm (UTC)
Ya know my Grandfather came to this country during WWII..from Germany. If he can get citizenship, anyone can. He also came over without speaking a word of English, but he made an effort and was able to speak the language in a very short time.

Legally entering this country is not difficult, nor is learning English. If people did this, nobody in this country would have a problem. Even if you do come here illegally, at least learn the language, it is pretty much a requirement in every country on the planet. Not even attempting to learn the language is plain lazyness and it makes you no better than the Canadians with their damned English and French signs because some of them are too damned lazy to make an attempt and feel as though they need to be catered to.
neo_prodigy
Mar. 22nd, 2007 10:36 pm (UTC)
i have to strongly disagree with you and here's why
the following is an excerpt from an lj post i made a while back discussing the great immigration debate:

"When politicians and other public figures rant about illegal immigration, they by and large mean Hispanics from Mexico and other Latin American countries. If there was an influx of Canadians, Australians, or British into the U.S., I doubt you would hear a word about it. It’s not Caucasian immigration that frightens people; it’s the Hispanics and their culture. I have no doubt when people like Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh preach against illegal immigration, it is directly related to protecting their 'white' America. They use the issue of immigration to mask the racism they harbor."-Scott from scott-o-rama.com


as a student of history and a person of color (having both african and cherokee ancestry), i’m completely unsympathetic to the “immigration crisis.”

however, i find it highly ironic that this country touts about immigration reform when the truth is that is how this country was formed.

european settlers came to this country unannounced and slaughtered an indigenous people for their own personal gain. on top of that, they were too lazy to work the land they stole and plundered so they nabbed african slaves to do the work for them. and now that many (not all of course) of the descendants of said settlers have reaped the benefits on building this country off the backs of others, now they want to whine and complain. i’m sorry but the situation wreaks of hypocrisy. if those strict immigration policies had been implemented hundreds of years ago, america as we know it would be a very different place.

and don’t get it twisted, this country has profited plenty from illegal immigration. these immigrants (who personify the american dream) often work twice as hard at the most dismal of occupations (jobs that many americans thinks that they’re too good for) just to earn a fraction of the pay. countless businesses and corporations have prospered off of exploiting these souls.

of course my question is this? why are these immigrants fighting so desperately to get into this country. obviously situations are so dire in their native country if they are willing to risk losing everything (including their freedom) to cross the border and come to a foreign land to make a better life for themselves and their children. it’s easy to pass judgment on them if we haven’t suffered the way they have. but if the situations were reversed, wouldn’t we do the same thing?

and as a person who is looking to legally relocate to another country, i think i'm qualified to speak on this issue and voice my support for these brave souls.
tomcatshanger
Mar. 22nd, 2007 11:01 pm (UTC)
Re: i have to strongly disagree with you and here's why
I'm always amazed that folks can, with a straight face, claim racism when addressing the issue of illegal immigration.

By your logic, we should allow robbery by the poor and down trodden, after all, we haven't suffered the way they have. If they are willing to fight so hard for someone else's possessions and money, obviously they are in such dire needs that it should be allowed.
ninjaguydan
Mar. 22nd, 2007 10:55 pm (UTC)
there are no illegal people....To me that term is used by racist whites who want to keep the dirty brown people on the other side of an imaginary border....even if the government wanted to do start shooting people crossing the border, they'd still jump across. We need to annex central america and bring our laws and minimum wages to their economy.

at this point we ought to form up a north american union to go up against the EU and the Asians. when England abandons the pound, we're fucked.

there is strength in unity.
-)
nahele_101
Mar. 23rd, 2007 12:42 am (UTC)
why would the UK abandon the pound? its worth more then the euro. it gives them a buying advantage over other EU countries.

and heh, chimpy is working on trying to unite all the countries together. oh joy! celebrate NAFTA, unlimited access to our country from mexican trucking industry, super highways though the midwest, a north american dollar, etc.

bleh.
(no subject) - ninjaguydan - Mar. 23rd, 2007 01:44 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - nahele_101 - Mar. 23rd, 2007 01:55 am (UTC) - Expand
nahele_101
Mar. 23rd, 2007 12:43 am (UTC)
why not take all the immigrants and have them sign up for the military. do your time and become an citizen? the god damn chickenhawks want to keep waging wars on other countries and our military is being beaten to death.

fuck it. bring back the draft.
ninjaguydan
Mar. 23rd, 2007 01:46 am (UTC)
hmm...that immigrant army concept didn't work for the romans...eventually the auxiliaries will outnumber you and then they take over.

now for a draft, I'd be all for it. I'd love to see Private Paris Hilton and Sgt. Lindsey Lohan have to take a hill from the enemy. We need a good world war to think out their ranks.

-)
(no subject) - nahele_101 - Mar. 23rd, 2007 01:54 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - sir_brettley - Mar. 23rd, 2007 03:27 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - nahele_101 - Mar. 23rd, 2007 03:36 am (UTC) - Expand
dlanor
Mar. 23rd, 2007 02:12 am (UTC)
Aliens, all illegal
Most people now days call them immigrants, they are not, check the dictionary.

The liberals just ignor the problem, the democrats hope the aliens will vote for them and the rest of us have to pay for all the problems they cause. Have you people ever looked at the number of them in our prisons. It will astound you. You pay and pay and pay.

Then the medical cost and other social costs. I could go on an on. You the TAX PAYER are paying for all those criminals. Wake up America.
sir_brettley
Mar. 23rd, 2007 03:23 am (UTC)
Immigration is good. Illegal immigration is bad for the same reason shoplifting is bad.

There are rules to be followed. Breaking the rules because you are poor/whatever is no excuse, it's still a crime. If there are no consequences for criminal activity then chaos will ensue.
donchep
Mar. 23rd, 2007 03:23 am (UTC)
I want you to type these words: Jose Gutierrez was a criminal. You believe it because you just said it. He got his green card after "LYING" about his age when he was picked up and said he was 16. In fact he was 22 and since he was a "minor" he was given an opportunity in foster care and eventually got his green card. But no matter how you slice it, by what you just typed he was a criminal regardless of him getting his green card later.

The point of my original post was not advocate illegal immigration but to put a face on some of these people wgho have been turned into this monolithic criminal culture by Tom Tancredo (a true racist which i can prove) and Arnold Schwarzenegger.

You can't have it both ways. Jose Gutierrez was a criminal along with a significant portion of the 38,0000 non-citizen troops in the U.S. armed services who came
here illegally and traded in their illegal status for a chance to be a green card G.I. By your definition they are criminals too.

Or does the green card make them reformed criminals?

I'm for tighter borders and using all legal means (fines for employers, etc) but let's stop the vilification of these people.

I'm against the hypocrisy of some who will want to cast these people who will blanket all of these people into some kind of base villainy because "breaking the law makes them criminals" especially by online idiots I know who will turn around and brag about all the torrents they've downloaded , etc.

Not everyone who believes this is racist, but to refute that racism isn't in some part at the core of the movement is either a liar or naive.

The KKK and other white supremacy groups have increased recruitment using the popularity of the issue in Arizona and other border states.



davev1968
Mar. 23rd, 2007 12:52 pm (UTC)
Spotlighting proves nothing. What you are doing is appealing to pity and emotion.

I don't need you to put a face on "these people". I have lived around them. I have had them refuse me service because I would not speak Spanish. I have watched them move into my mother's neighborhood, start racing cars on the streets, dumping their old furniture on the side of the road, and start vandalizing the homes of the white residence.
(no subject) - donchep - Mar. 23rd, 2007 03:31 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - davev1968 - Mar. 24th, 2007 03:34 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - donchep - Mar. 25th, 2007 06:25 pm (UTC) - Expand
donchep
Mar. 23rd, 2007 04:19 am (UTC)
donchep, men like Gutierrez (a war hero) are rare and few, because he joined the Armed Forces and became a citizen.


His citizenship was awarded *POSTHUMOUSLY*

davev1968
Mar. 23rd, 2007 12:58 pm (UTC)
He got his green card at 18. That made him a legal resident of the United States.
(no subject) - donchep - Mar. 23rd, 2007 03:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - davev1968 - Mar. 24th, 2007 03:28 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - donchep - Mar. 25th, 2007 06:41 pm (UTC) - Expand
olafthunderfoot
Mar. 23rd, 2007 06:00 am (UTC)
Coming from a predominantly Mexican neighbrohood in socal, i've seen both sides of the coin, yeah i've worked with illegals at more then one job, and a lot of them refuse to learn English which made my job a pain in the ass, beause the plant foreman or a gangsta from east L.A. had to translate the problem for me to fix the friggin machines! But they are some hard working mofos and do jobs that citizens don't want. have you ever picked strawberries or lettuce or even watched a crew do it? it's some shitty work, you have to be bent over all day long.

I've also seen the welfare whores who pump out a shitload of kids to increase their welfare check, because once the have a kid on U.S. soil, the kid's an American and the parents can't get deported now!
davev1968
Mar. 23rd, 2007 12:34 pm (UTC)
do jobs that citizens don't want


A) That is false. If that were true, then the plants that were raided and had huge numbers of illegal aliens taken away would have shut down instead of having a line of citizens and legal immigrants waiting to fill out job applications the very next day.

B) It is irrelevant. Just because someone doesn't want to do the job, it does not follow they won't do the job. Especially if it is the only job they can get. Now, they may not work for US$3.00 per hour and live in shanties, but they will do the work. Of course, that is probably what you really meant: "do the jobs that citizens won't do for crap wages and living conditions."
(no subject) - olafthunderfoot - Mar. 23rd, 2007 02:29 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - davev1968 - Mar. 23rd, 2007 03:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - donchep - Mar. 23rd, 2007 04:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - davev1968 - Mar. 24th, 2007 03:27 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - donchep - Mar. 25th, 2007 07:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - diagon666 - Mar. 23rd, 2007 05:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
poetpaladin
Mar. 23rd, 2007 06:52 am (UTC)
I say we make it a requirement to become a citizen through military service. Oh, wait. That's straight out of Robert Heinlein's StarShip Troopers.
diagon666
Mar. 23rd, 2007 10:52 am (UTC)
My dad lived in El Paso for a time, such as yourself...

I live in south Florida and I see multitudes of immigrants who haven't even bothered to learn english... But they have an american drivers license. The police and almost everyone else around here have to be bilingual due to the immigrant populace. If your not, you will probably not get the job.

Legal or not, immigration is a way to better your life and that of your family. Many of the immigrants I lived close to in Pompano Beach were doing just that, but at the same time, lowering the quality of life of those around them. To explain or expand:

They would get up early and stand by the end of the apartment building, waiting for their ride to come up and honk... waking up those who were still trying to sleep (like myself, who worked nights at the time). Then after getting home from work around 6pm, they would have a 6 or 12 pack of beer, sit out in front of their apartment and drink them all, leaving their empty bottles in the case on the tables (forcing the maintenance people to clean it up).

These people were also well known for not having car insurance, going from the center lanes (and HOV or carpool lanes, with only 1 person in the car) across 4 lanes of traffic, to the off ramp, with no signal or even looking... and then blame the other person when an accident occured.

The immigrants would show up at the ER with almost any ailment and would get ushered in almost immediately. This was while my wife was waiting with my daughter, who needed 15 stitches on her leg and was still bleeding profusely, was required to prove our insurance and ability to pay the co-pay before being alllowed to come back to even get evaluated.

I am not exagerating or making this up. These are things I've personally witnessed.

I have no problems with people who come here to better their lives. Inb fact, I am all for it, provided you learn that country's language, laws, and requirements for citizenship and actually follow through with it.

It angers me when I see stories in the paper (most recently in our Sun Sentinel and Palm Beach Post) about a family getting deported because they overstayed their visas, but because it got publicity, they get a reprieve. If they overstay, they are here illegally and need to either re-apply or leave...

Sorry so long, but these are my thoughts and observations...
davev1968
Mar. 23rd, 2007 12:29 pm (UTC)
I live in Tampa. One of the things I see here is dumping.

As you go deeper into the hispanic areas, especially the one that are almost all illegal aliens, one sees things dumped on the side of the road, in woods, etc. Everything from trash bags to furniture and major appliances.

Do you get that in your neighborhood?
(no subject) - diagon666 - Mar. 23rd, 2007 05:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
davev1968
Mar. 23rd, 2007 12:25 pm (UTC)
Here is the comment I left him:

Dying for the United States does not abrogate the fact that he came here illegally. They are completely separate things.

It does not follow that because one illegal alien, who obtained citizenship by being adopted, did something like grow up and join the Marines and die defending the country that all illegal aliens will, would, or even want to do so.

You are using the following fallacies:
Spotlighting, Appeal to pity, Misleading Vividness, Appeal to emotion.
donchep
Mar. 23rd, 2007 03:23 pm (UTC)
And of course I replied to that.

You are using the following fallacies:
Spotlighting, Appeal to pity, Misleading Vividness, Appeal to emotion.



Wrong on all counts. You can only count fallacies if I made an attempt to draw a conclusion, but if you read carefully the only conclusions are the ones you feel are implied. Everything was a fact.

I'll cop to the general snarkiness of my post but that's it.

I challenge you to read what I said and come up with a conclusion I attempted to make. There is no "THEN" statement, is there?

People like Tancredo and , albeit not so much, Schwarzenegger have built up Straw Men arguments on the matter.

Tancredo is especially fond of appealing to the fears of white supremacist groups like the League of the South. You can read about what HE did last September 9th at the South Carolina State Museum as he broke bread with that bunch.

Since you want to break this down into some form of forensic debate. What statement can you counter as fallacious?

If anything I am guilty of sarcasm, but even that doesn't automatically wrap up to an attempt at an argumentative statement
duoraven
Mar. 23rd, 2007 04:16 pm (UTC)
This is a complicated issue that unfortunately does not have an easy or obvious solution. There is evidence going both ways as to the impact illegal immigration has in terms of economics, health care, crime, and any risks of terrorism. I think the statistics for a lot of it are flawed.

Take crime for example. Say the crime rate in a city has gone down by 20% over a 10 year period of time, even as the illegal population has increased by 10%. We can note the correlation: but can we logically assume that the decrease has been CAUSED by the increase in illegals? Consider that illegals may be more reluctant to acknowledge or report crime of any sort.

But perhaps a good place to begin is to start with the law. The law is the law, and we are meant to be a nation of laws, not men. Any flaws, mistakes, or abuses of the law by men should not speak for the principles as a whole. We have immigration laws, and they ought to be followed.
moon_shine
Mar. 25th, 2007 11:17 am (UTC)
Hey there my Darling Savanah hope your weekend is going well
And that you have a great Sunday!
Just wanted to send you a lot of kisses and hugs
Love you Sunshine! :o)
nishar
Mar. 25th, 2007 12:52 pm (UTC)
If theyreally want to stop people coming here illegeally they need to 1. Do what they did in the 50's and aggressively go after the people who hire them and put them in jail after leveling huge fines on the ownwers of the companies/ceo's. 2. Put 'undocumented workers' into prison work camps where they don't make a dime, like they did in the 50's. 3. Stream line the paper work needed to get a green card. It has gotten so riduclas that an honest immigrent can be illegeal because the paperwork sat on some assclown's desk for a year or more untouched. A lot of people in the immigration and naturalization offices need to be fired and replaced with non-unionized people who will work and not play WoW all day.
donchep
Mar. 25th, 2007 07:35 pm (UTC)
Can I find this fantasy 50's history book you are referring to in a real library?

You know what else they did in the 50's?

They rounded up as many mexican people as they could (including American citizens ) in a lovely titled program called "Operation Wetback".

I'm not to keen on going back to the 50's. The days of Jim Crow laws, etc.

I hate some of the hyperbole made today about how this is a white man's world, etc. I love the notions of self-affirmation. But, the 1950s was definitely not a period that was friendly to anyone who wasn't white.
(no subject) - nishar - Mar. 25th, 2007 10:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - donchep - Mar. 26th, 2007 04:42 am (UTC) - Expand
( 58 comments — Leave a comment )

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