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( 58 comments — Leave a comment )
Oct. 13th, 2006 03:03 am (UTC)
Habeus Corpus has traditionally not applied to enemy combatants captured in time of war in a theater of combat. A German Soldier captured by US forces during WWII did not have recourse to our civilian courts. This is a necessity of war, because an enemy would train their soldiers to overwhelm their enemies civilian courts with Habeus petitions if it were possible.

Be careful about what you hear in the media, because for the most part they are completely full of crap. this is the actual bill that was passed by Congress and signed into law by President Bush:
Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by military commission under this chapter.
So this act does not apply to US citizens, only alien unlawful combatants
Determination of Unlawful Enemy Combatant Status Dispositive- A finding, whether before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense that a person is an unlawful enemy combatant is dispositive for purposes of jurisdiction for trial by military commission under this chapter.
A tribunal must first make a determination of the person's status
The accused shall be permitted to present evidence in his defense, to cross-examine the witnesses who testify against him, and to examine and respond to evidence admitted against him on the issue of guilt or innocence and for sentencing, as provided for by this chapter.
I think you'll find that this act provides for many of the same constitutional safeguards employed in civilian courts. Read the whole thing. I think there are points that can be argued here, but there's a lot of BS flying around by people with agendas out there. I generally prefer to go right to the source and make up my own mind. The media, for the most part, just sensationalizes everything.
Oct. 13th, 2006 03:06 am (UTC)
I stand corrected.
(no subject) - daddy - Oct. 13th, 2006 03:45 am (UTC) - Expand
all I can say - playgirl - Oct. 13th, 2006 04:03 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kmilligan - Oct. 13th, 2006 04:04 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - sonofabish - Oct. 13th, 2006 05:57 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - daddy - Oct. 13th, 2006 02:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
speechless - playgirl - Oct. 13th, 2006 04:02 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: speechless - kmilligan - Oct. 13th, 2006 04:08 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - olafthunderfoot - Oct. 16th, 2006 03:11 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kmilligan - Oct. 16th, 2006 03:43 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - olafthunderfoot - Oct. 16th, 2006 03:53 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kmilligan - Oct. 16th, 2006 04:02 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - olafthunderfoot - Oct. 16th, 2006 04:25 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kmilligan - Oct. 16th, 2006 04:34 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - olafthunderfoot - Oct. 16th, 2006 05:00 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
Oct. 13th, 2006 04:47 pm (UTC)
Actually, I agree with you.
I get flammed all the time! - playgirl - Oct. 13th, 2006 05:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
Oct. 13th, 2006 03:16 am (UTC)
Do NOT get me started......I have been saying this since the FIRST passage of the "Patriot" act and I keep getting called unpatriotic....I am getting ready to move someplace where freedom is respected....perhaps....Mexico....I hope that wall only works one way.

Seriously, you can quote me on this.....

History will not judge us based on how well we keep ourselves safe, but rather on how well we preserve human rights and dignity while doing it.
Oct. 16th, 2006 03:15 am (UTC)
the passage of the patriot act is when we lost the war on terror!
Oct. 13th, 2006 04:01 am (UTC)
HABEAS CORPUS or translated means Produce the Body. Yes this is one of the basic foundations of our justice system. It means that if one is accused of a crime then they must be told what the crime is and proof of that crime must be produced. Innocent until proven guilty also plays in here.

TERRORISTS, not being US Citizens, do not fall under those laws that they are trying to destroy. They want to KILL us and destroy our country. Why the hell should we insure them these rights?

HELL they already have it better than many Americans. They are given 3 square meals a day that are within the guidelines of the Islamic beliefs. They are not allowed to be disturbed for ANY reason for 8 hours of sleep, OR for the 5 prayer periods. They are given new rugs, they are each given a Koran even though many never owned one before. They are allowed to send and recieve correspondence that is not checked by officials, their times with legal council are not monitored, they are given the best Medical and Dental care available.

They still plot to attack and kill the guards, and all Americans.

Im sorry they dont deserve the rights that are reserved for American Citizens.
Oct. 13th, 2006 05:03 am (UTC)
Yes, but look at who our government labels as terrorists. Even innocents were labeled thus and kept for years.

You won't resist until they come for you. By then, no one will be to speak up for you.
(no subject) - p0stmdrnpr1mt1v - Oct. 13th, 2006 07:05 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - daddy - Oct. 13th, 2006 01:25 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - poetpaladin - Oct. 13th, 2006 03:11 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - poetpaladin - Oct. 13th, 2006 05:04 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - daddy - Oct. 13th, 2006 01:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - poetpaladin - Oct. 13th, 2006 03:08 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - daddy - Oct. 14th, 2006 12:07 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Oct. 14th, 2006 12:23 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - poetpaladin - Oct. 14th, 2006 11:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - daddy - Oct. 15th, 2006 02:01 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - poetpaladin - Oct. 15th, 2006 04:05 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - daddy - Oct. 15th, 2006 04:36 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - poetpaladin - Oct. 13th, 2006 03:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - daddy - Oct. 14th, 2006 12:03 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - poetpaladin - Oct. 14th, 2006 11:44 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - daddy - Oct. 15th, 2006 02:10 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - moon_shine - Oct. 13th, 2006 06:21 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - nsingman - Oct. 13th, 2006 02:18 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - daddy - Oct. 13th, 2006 02:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - olafthunderfoot - Oct. 16th, 2006 03:32 am (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - daddy - Oct. 16th, 2006 02:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
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Oct. 13th, 2006 04:33 am (UTC)
are mad at me about some thing?
Oct. 13th, 2006 05:43 am (UTC)
This president is a spineless jodyfuck who hates freedom worse than Al Qaeda does. He stifles dissent, he refuses to honor the legal process, he believes he has the right to tell people who they can and cannot marry, etc etc etc. Olberman's dead fucking on. These bastards have killed the freedoms that made this country great and turned it into some sort of cheesedick neonazi fascist state run by crazed religious zealots and congenital liars.
Oct. 16th, 2006 03:36 am (UTC)
HUZZAH and well said!
Oct. 13th, 2006 06:27 am (UTC)
In a lot of contries, most troops don't have uniforms. They simply don't mean anything to the people there. Uniforms is more of a western concept. The Geneva conventions reflect that and say all enemy combatents must be treated under their conventions. We in fact executed and imprisoned Germans and Japanese troops and commanders for what they did the French, Yugoslavian and Chinese resistence fighters. This law is an attempt to get around the Genevea conventions. I think it will get overturned in our courts.
Most of the people we are accusing of terrorism are not terrorist. They are fighting to kick us out of their nation. They are doing the same thing I would do if Anerica was invaded. They are more loyal to their tribes and religious sects and fight for those groups and not for their nation. Right now the Taliban are launching a major offensive in Afganistan which the US press isn't covering. We are in a lot of trouble over there. Abd it's only going to get worse. It's Vietnam all over again, only in dry mountains with religious zealots as our enemies.
Oct. 16th, 2006 03:07 pm (UTC)
hmmm The Chinese have Uniforms, the Japanese have uniforms, Koreans North and South have Uniforms, The Vietnamese have Uniforms, the Austrailian's have Uniforms as do all countries in Europe Asia, Africa, South America and North America.

The only ARMY's that dont have uniforms are the North Pole PolaBears and the South Pole Penguins and thats cause they will not stand still for the tailors.

Are you aware of any other duly organized Army's of a soverign nation that fights in its underware?

If the people who are accusd are not terrorists will you let them live in your back yard?

As for Vietnam, Were You there? Do you have any idea what the hell you are talking about? The answer to both is NO, which in my book negates everything else you said.
Oct. 13th, 2006 10:50 am (UTC)
I could care less about the guys in the second video if they were actually guilty of something. What bugged the shit out of me about afganistan was that those taliban assholes were chopping heads off in the olympic stadium. But people want to be all touchy feely about how we treat prisoners. Fuck these guys! People who buy into Bush's bullshit don't seem to realize what is happening in Gitmo is only the beginning. Like one other said more than a few of those people there are AMERICAN CITIZENS. They are being held without due process. Just becuase they are "thought" to be guilty. I almost never agreed with Habeus corpus until shit like this started to happen. Just like the No fly list. They argue that this is necessary. But why if a John smith born in Yemen that is dark skinned black hair and 5'3" on the no fly list because he is guilty of terrorist activities. Why does this cause grief for a John smith who is 63 years old caucasion with balding grey hair? Why does he have to be questioned every single time he tries to board an airplane? I'll tell you. Becuase the list is just that. A list of names. They provide the airlines with no details. What kind of shit is that? The worst part of all is that the name John smith will NEVER be removed. So any john smith no matter who he is will have to be fucked with every single time he tries to fly somewhere. The govt's response. Suck it up. To think this is still only the beginning. If this stupid ass country had any common sense they would start electiing people who are going to come in and undo all this bullshit. I'll be right behind Big al in getting out of here if Jeb bush gets elected.
Oct. 13th, 2006 02:58 pm (UTC)
Facts and Truths and Savanna's Journal
I just finished re-reading all the posts here, and one thing stands out very strong. All the feelings and points of view are stated clearly and with conviction.

It is wonderful that we all live in a place that we can make our feelings known and not have to worry about retribution.

I may not agree with all the views but I do read them and enjoy the spirited debates.

Savanna, Thank You my Dear for comming up with ideas to arouse our passions.
Oct. 13th, 2006 04:14 pm (UTC)
My brother and I talk a lot about this stuff. We agree most all of the time. He made a statement that I found to be very enlightening.

"Which would you rather, a group of American soldiers or a group of Al-Quida coming into a room with you. Which would you feel more comfortable with?"

I think most American's view the world with our morals, our preceptions on how life should be. Like through rose colored glasses if you will. Other countries don't have the same views as we do, very few of them in fact. Just take for example in Africa where it is common practice to mutilate a young woman, that is their custom. We find it abhorant. But they've been doing it for centuries. These people we are at war with believe in their way of life to a fanatical degree. Someone here said it, "They want to kill us." Not convert us but wipe us off the face of the earth, along with every one else that isn't in their eyes a true believer.

My idea? Let Isreal have at them. They are the chosen of God, right? If you believe in the Old Testament they are. Let them have at the infidels.
Oct. 15th, 2006 02:06 pm (UTC)
Not necessarily in Gitmo, but there have been American citizens held elsewhere without being properly charged with any crime, just under some vague suspicion of terrorism provisions of the Patriot Act.

It so happens I was a political science major way back in the day, so I know the meaning of Fascism and these assclowns running out government fit the bill- conservative, believe power should be centralized, and believe that the right of the State trumps the right of the individual. Sound familiar?

I full well understand we are at war and I understand the nature of the enemy. But to paraphrase some leader whose name I can't pull up at the moment, the test of a true democracy is how it reacts when threatened. Back in WWII we just indiscriminately rounded up Japanese-American citizens and herded them into camps. And now we have this current mess.

Just because we are at war does not mean we toss our freedoms out the window. Yet that is exactly what El Presidente and his supporters want us to do. And if some innocent people get caught up in the net? Well, to them, that's an "oh well".

That's not America. Again, that is the lowest of chickenshit fascism straight out of Kafka's "The Trial".

I tossed that phrase "the terrorists hate freedom" out because that's a direct quote from El Presidente as to why he's conducting this "War On Terrorism".

Of course they hate us. Look at what the US and its proxy, Israel, has done to Palestinians/Muslims over the past 60 years. And look what we've done to Iraq. 3100 or so people died in 9/11. Our actions in Iraq led either directly or indirectly thus far to about 40,000 deaths over there. We stood idly by while Israel flattened Lebanon. We were mute back in the 80s when Ariel Sharon allowed Lebanaese Christian Phalangists into Sabra and Shattila to massacre Palestinians.

I am not excusing the actions of Al Qaeda. Yes they are bloodthirsty and yes, they need to be taken on with every legitimate means at our disposal, with strong emphasis upon legitimate.

I am deeply ashamed of the fact that our government has succumbed to barbarism in approving and practicing torture and ignoring the Geneva Conventions. It is wrong and it is immoral and it really makes it hard to work up the proper outrage over some Al Qaeda atrocity posted on Al Jazeera knowing that our side has committed much the same outrage. And don't give me that "we don't do that"- you're a bright guy and I think you know damn well what was going on in those secret CIA gulags across Eastern Europe. They weren't playing patty-cake or teaching them conversational English.

Now as for dealing with them, why reinvent the wheel? Al Qaeda's means are different, but they themselves are no different from other enemies we have faced in the past other than they are a transnational group rather than a single government.

Declare war on Al Qaeda. Use the Geneva Conventions which we essentially wrote as a guideline for dealing with captured enemy. For US/domestic arrestees, there's the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which have worked pretty well for the past 220 years or so.

This isn't rocket science, but then again, we have a bunch of clueless jodyfucks running the show, and now they've brought in that fucking war criminal Henry Kissinger to advise them. Jesus, what's next- reanimating Hitler's brain?

There's a number of things that make this all especially shameful. Following 9/11 they had a golden opportunity to stomp out this radical Islamic fundamentalism. We had the support of maybe 85% of the world to go after Al Qaeda, but then instead El Presidente decided fuck Al Qaeda, the real enemy was Saddam Hussein. Do you think Bin Ladin would still be running free if we had used all those troops in Afghanistan going after him instead of invading and occupying Iraq?

And then there's the tragic matter of 2600+ US servicepeople killed in action in Iraq, a needless sacrifice of those heroes.

Oct. 15th, 2006 02:06 pm (UTC)
The way we are going to win this war on terror is to marginalize Al Qaeda, to win the "hearts and minds" of the world and show them that democracy is there to protect them, not oppress them, and that we are better than our enemy. That will discourage the casual person from joining the fight against America. Then go after those that remain.

Instead, through our actions we're showing the world that we're just as bad as the enemy. Hardly a winning strategy.
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