?

Log in

No account? Create an account

Previous Entry | Next Entry

Catholic Church German Nazism


Photo source: Holocaust Encyclopedia

Did the Catholic Church help German Nazism?

Please tell me that this is not true!!
The Pictures Accuse: The Catholic Church and Nazism in Germany and Croatia

Comments

( 88 comments — Leave a comment )
Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>
ninjaguydan
Sep. 26th, 2006 10:26 pm (UTC)
the short answer...
Yes.

How do you think all these guys got to South America? Flying with Pan Am?

-P
tomcatshanger
Sep. 27th, 2006 02:01 am (UTC)
Re: the short answer...
Via boat and airplane. With help from Germans already in South America.

Not that I'm saying the church didn't play a hand, but I'm pretty sure the Nazi's didn't walk or swim.
Re: the short answer... - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:15 am (UTC) - Expand
jake_durango
Sep. 26th, 2006 11:01 pm (UTC)
I think the Catholic Church didn't discourage the Holocaust, but I am not sure that there is enough documentary evidence that the Vatican gave it's approval. Certainly, the Church had to shoulder the blame. After all, there was a Papal decree apologizing for their action/inaction.

Naturally, not all Catholic officials were ambivalient toward what the Nazis were doing. Several German priests were interned/imprisoned throughout the concentration camp system. Most of them were sent to Dachau. I've a book written by a priest who spent something like 7 years there, all for speaking out against the Nazi Party. Additionally, most of the priesthood from Poland and Lithuania was imprisoned at Dachua. Unfortunately, most of them were killed, either through outright execution or from starvation/being worked to death.

I do think, though, that the Church has some culpability in the matter.
playgirl
Sep. 28th, 2006 02:16 am (UTC)
I've made a new post.

Just my way of thanking you all.
daddy
Sep. 26th, 2006 11:23 pm (UTC)
Its true..
Pope Pius XII who's reign was from 1939 to 1958 did have a lot to do with Hitler. The link is quite accurate. Unfortunately there were a number of Popes who were not the best people and the history of the Popes does not look good when scrutinized.

Some were as holy as the position allowed them to be, some were not as nice. For instance, Clement Xi issued a papal bull against Bible reading. Innocent III prevented people from reading the Bible and Gregory IX even had people burned for owning a Bible.

John XXIII (1410 to 1415) was a most depraved man. As the Cardinal of Bologna, 200 maidens, Nuns and married women fell prey to his amours. As Pope he violated virgins and Nuns, lived in adultery with his brothers wife and sold Cardinalates to children (some as young as 7) of wealthy families and even openly denied the future life.

The atrocities of the early Popes goes on but you get my drift. Renmember the adage of Absolute Power corrupts absolutely, well the early Popes in many instances had absolute Power.

duoraven
Sep. 27th, 2006 02:35 am (UTC)
No, no, no...
I normally agree with what you have to say, but here you've got many serious errors.

Starting backwards, Pope John XXIII was pope after Pius XII, from 195-1963. There was an ANTIpope named John XXIII to whom you are referring, but he was not the one true supreme pontiff.

Two of the other three popes you mention reigned long before the printing press, so how many bibles could there possibly have been for them to ban/burn? Do you have a citation for this?

I can tell you that personal Bible study was discouraged by the Church until the 20th century--that is not to say OWNERSHIP was discouraged, but individual study was because there was a belief in the Church that it would lead to schism.

Pius XII has been falsely accused of being linked to hitler, but even the author of the book HITLER'S POPE (which blamed Pius for nearly every calamity of the 20th Century) later came out and said he was overly critical of Pius's methods and motivations.

Cite?
Re: No, no, no... - daddy - Sep. 27th, 2006 04:00 am (UTC) - Expand
ANTIpope John - duoraven - Sep. 27th, 2006 04:35 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: ANTIpope John - daddy - Sep. 27th, 2006 10:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: ANTIpope John - duoraven - Sep. 28th, 2006 01:18 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: ANTIpope John - daddy - Sep. 28th, 2006 03:28 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: ANTIpope John - duoraven - Sep. 28th, 2006 07:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: ANTIpope John - daddy - Sep. 28th, 2006 08:30 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: ANTIpope John - duoraven - Sep. 29th, 2006 05:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: ANTIpope John - (Anonymous) - Sep. 29th, 2006 08:43 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: ANTIpope John - daddy - Sep. 29th, 2006 08:46 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:16 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
duoraven
Sep. 27th, 2006 02:39 am (UTC)
Evidence?
1. The current pope was forced into being a member of Hitler's Youth after Hitler disolved all other organizations and made it cumpulsory.

2. Pius can be accused of not going above and beyond the call of duty, but he in no way endorsed or encouraged the Holocaust.

3. Just one example, well over 10% of America's students are educated in schools operating within the jursidiction of the Catholic Church. I don't know the number of hospitals or other charities but there are more than a handful.

And even groups that are not directly controlled by the Church, such as the Knights of Columbus, are motivated and driven by their love of the Church.
Re: Evidence? - daddy - Sep. 27th, 2006 04:06 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - moon_shine - Sep. 27th, 2006 04:18 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - daddy - Sep. 27th, 2006 09:25 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - themyst - Sep. 27th, 2006 04:37 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - duoraven - Sep. 27th, 2006 04:44 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - themyst - Sep. 27th, 2006 04:49 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - mckavian - Sep. 27th, 2006 02:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - themyst - Sep. 27th, 2006 02:30 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - themyst - Sep. 27th, 2006 02:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - mckavian - Sep. 27th, 2006 02:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - duoraven - Sep. 27th, 2006 02:50 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - themyst - Sep. 27th, 2006 02:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - daddy - Sep. 27th, 2006 09:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - themyst - Sep. 28th, 2006 03:45 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Evidence? - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:26 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
Re: Evidence? - duoraven - Sep. 27th, 2006 03:05 pm (UTC) - Expand
Other 2 - duoraven - Sep. 27th, 2006 03:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - moon_shine - Sep. 27th, 2006 03:38 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - moon_shine - Sep. 27th, 2006 05:27 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:16 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
mckavian
Sep. 27th, 2006 01:13 am (UTC)
There is pleanty of other evidence than just this link to support this question.

nahele_101 is right, Catholics by in large do a lot of good things, but the church itself is a fucked up institution.
duoraven
Sep. 27th, 2006 02:39 am (UTC)
How so?
(no subject) - moon_shine - Sep. 27th, 2006 03:40 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - mckavian - Sep. 27th, 2006 05:42 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:18 am (UTC) - Expand
asifallforever
Sep. 27th, 2006 01:36 am (UTC)
like with most religons. You have your extremists. hell the current pope was hitler youth at one point in his life. It doesn't surprise me that there are priests in this photo. Although i figure the nazis were largely atheists.
duoraven
Sep. 27th, 2006 02:41 am (UTC)
Nazi ideology was primarily an atheistic one. There were Nazis who considered themselves Christians (Catholic or Protestant) although the Nazi group itself, if it had any religious leanings at all, were more tied to old germanic/norse tradition than Christianity.
(no subject) - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:19 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
tomcatshanger
Sep. 27th, 2006 02:02 am (UTC)
I always wonder why people gloss over Uncle Stalin and his merry men myself.
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - tomcatshanger - Sep. 27th, 2006 02:46 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:20 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - duoraven - Sep. 27th, 2006 02:42 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - p0stmdrnpr1mt1v - Sep. 27th, 2006 11:56 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:28 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:19 am (UTC) - Expand
duoraven
Sep. 27th, 2006 02:49 am (UTC)
This article largely parrots a book by John Cornwell entitled HITLER'S POPE. Pius has come under fire in the past ten years or so for not doing enough (or not doing anything) to disrupt the Holocaust or Nazism--Cornwell goes so far as to accuse Pius of helping put the Nazis in power and being responsible for virually every catostrophe in Europe in the early 20th century.

Cornwell's book has been debunked by THE MYTH OF HITLER'S POPE: HOW PIUS XII RESCUED JEWS FROM THE NAZIS, which was written by a Jewish Rabbi named David Dalin. It's worth mentioning that Jews following the Holocaust all praised the Holy Father and so do articles of the New York Times from that era.

I could go on for a while, but you get the idea. History can be made to say many things, but there is only one truth.
moon_shine
Sep. 27th, 2006 03:57 am (UTC)
"First they came for the man down the street and I said nothing then they came for the man next door and still no one said any thing and last they came for me and there was no one left to say any thing"

the church has a lot that it has just let happen when it could of done more in a more timely manner but our faith is in each of us and we must live every day doing what we believe in our hearts no church can do it for us!!! but if someone was never raised as a catholic, I don't see how they will ever under stand what We as Catholics truly believe and we are not nazis not then and not Now!
aamusedinatx
Sep. 27th, 2006 03:59 am (UTC)
There are quite a few blotches, political and otherwise on the history of the Catholic church. This is just one of them. However, they weren't the only one the Vatican and it's council is an independent political state and so it functions as a nation, not just a religious institution. As a Nation it had to exercise diplomacy even with the Nazi party. There was a bit too much silence and turning a blind eye, especially in the early years. Later during and after the war there was definitely cooperation in helping suspected war criminals escape Europe and prosecution as well. The end of the war did not immediately signal the end of their influence or ability to exert fear.

The Vatican was not the only one who did this. For instance, Prime Minister Chamberlain in the UK was replaced by Churchill. He fell out of popularity for his policy of "appeasement" for Nazi Germany after they annex Czechoslovakia.

It is difficult looking back 60 some years and try to apply 'modern' understanding of history upon men (and women) who were confronted with the rise of the Third Reich. No one had seen anything quite like it within their life time. While it offered to re-capture the glory days of the Kaiser's it went far deeper and far beyond that.

However--as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. The Church may be the Bride of Christ, in the Bible, but it is also a body of men: human men filled with pride, ambition, greed, a lust for power, and the power to re-write history and make sure the end justifies the means. It has a long, long history of atrocities: political and sexual.

I was raised Catholic. I no longer call myself Catholic. I put my faith in the spirit of God--not in God's men. This is the difference, I think, between personal spirituality and blind Dogma.--That's just me.
moon_shine
Sep. 27th, 2006 04:25 am (UTC)
Well said!
(no subject) - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:21 am (UTC) - Expand
biglittlebro
Sep. 27th, 2006 04:17 am (UTC)
Point one. As in all countries overtaken by tyranny, the first thing that is done is to shackle the free churches into following the Party line. Many priests and ministers went into concentration camps for refusing to follow Nazi Party orders. Some, like Deitrich Bonhoffer, died for taking a stand. A great many others bowed down and submitted to the doctrine of Fascism rather than the doctrines of Christ. Not commendable, but as I ask myself ofteh, if those who have the benefit of hindsight these days had lived then, under that regime of terror, would they have stood up for right and been willing to take the death that was meted out?

I am not in any way anti-semitic, but I douldn't say that I would have followed the party in that situation.

Secondly, let us be entirely fair, not ascribing any fault to the Vatican, and I don't by the way. In 1938, a year before this Pope was elected, a comvention was called in the face of the growing violence and oppression against the Jews in Europe to ask other countries of the world to open their borders and allow European Jewry to take refuge away from Hitler's violence and hatred. NOT ONE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD OFFERED TO GIVE SANCTUARY, NOT EVEN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA</> The only ones who managed to get into the USA were those who had somebody to sponsor them. Others who had no sponsors were turned away and forced to return to Europe and certain destruction.

How poignant would it have been for a Jew who had sailed across the Atlantic to within sight of the Statue of Liberty and freedom, to have been turned away and sent back to death in the ovens. And remember, Australia with it's vast open spaces also turned them down.

It's not about pointing a finger, but about learning a lesson. Nobody is free of guilt, as Hitler only procedded with his plans when he saw that the rest of the world didn't give a shit. Learn the lesson from that, not try to criticise one small part of the then heirarchy. Learn the lesson and never let it happen to anybody again.

Uncle Glen has spoken.

moon_shine
Sep. 27th, 2006 04:31 am (UTC)
Learn the lesson and never let it happen to anybody again. I agree I wonder tho will man kind ever be able to do it?
(no subject) - nishar - Sep. 27th, 2006 04:55 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:22 am (UTC) - Expand
shadowy_poet
Sep. 27th, 2006 04:58 am (UTC)
The idea that the Nazi's and other fascists were atheist or strictly pagan/supernaturalists is a falsehood that is eagerly believed by many. By its very nature, fascism usually incorporates strong appeals to whatever the dominate religion is in the country in question. In Germany that was Christianity and Hitler made extensive use of Christian beliefs, at least those he found useful. The catholic church and protestant churches in Germany were guilty of enabling Hitler by either looking the other way or actively collaborating with him. The exceptions to that complicitness are what people like to emphasize because it makes them feel better.

By the way, the catholic church also collaborated with the fascist governments of Mussolini in Italy and Franco in Spain.
moon_shine
Sep. 27th, 2006 05:35 am (UTC)
so is it only the catholics you blame for this or all religions.
it seem to me that there is a lot of blame to go around here
(no subject) - sweeny_todd - Sep. 27th, 2006 02:44 pm (UTC) - Expand
People v. Ideas - duoraven - Sep. 27th, 2006 03:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:22 am (UTC) - Expand
nishar
Sep. 27th, 2006 05:34 am (UTC)
There were some people in the church who supported the Nazis and helped many of them flee with forged papers and passports provided by the church machinary. But I say it was mostly politics as usual. The Pope was trying to keep the Church intact and since German troops controlled Rome for a while he was willing to do what Hitler's people said. And of course he had problems with Il Duce as well. I think he was walking a razor's edge and did what he had to do to prevent the Catholic Chrurch from being exiled from Europe and to have many of their artifacts and proerty siezed.
duoraven
Sep. 27th, 2006 03:10 pm (UTC)
Re: Nazism
Heh heh, i love that photo...even though it creeps me out
Re: Nazism - playgirl - Sep. 28th, 2006 02:23 am (UTC) - Expand
dirtywhiteboi
Sep. 27th, 2006 11:49 am (UTC)
Why of course they did.

dirt
Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>
( 88 comments — Leave a comment )

Latest Month

May 2015
S M T W T F S
     12
3456789
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930
31      

Tags

Powered by LiveJournal.com