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This is not good!


This is insane!
President Bush supports a policy that would benefit American business owners and illegal immigrants seeking jobs in U.S.
I am appalled by this, when the U.S. has so many Americans without jobs.
If Bush and President Fox bring this about, I feel there will be:
More unemployment for Americans.
More unwanted pregnancies.
More welfare recipients.
More suing.
More crime.
Over population.
Higher taxes.
Slave Labor.
Who would benefit by this policy? Surely not the Americans!
The only ones who would benefit would be the RICH business owners and the illegal immigrants.
And here I was going to vote Republican for the first time in my life; for President Bush next year!
Will I be voting for him? Hell no!!

Comments

( 25 comments — Leave a comment )
eeecho_42
Jan. 9th, 2004 08:23 pm (UTC)
I'm glad to see...
...You are finally seeing what the rest of us have been seeing all along.

Bush is a flim flam artist.

He points up at the Moon and Mars saying, "That's where we are heading", and while everyone is looking up he and his party are robbing us blind, stripping us bare, and selling us all to hell.

P.S. Nice choice of picture, it makes the Mexican President look like he's doing a Nazi salute.
frookie4u
Jan. 10th, 2004 08:38 pm (UTC)
Re: I'm glad to see...
Give 'em the old razzle dazzle? Agree with you completely.
kamerryn
Feb. 13th, 2004 05:21 am (UTC)
Re: I'm glad to see...
The Mexican President looks not unlike Saddam Hussein, poor fellow.
meliorated
Jan. 9th, 2004 09:09 pm (UTC)
It's a complex issue. There are pro's and con's to this bill, as with every single one passed. Think of it this way...

I've been to some really shitty third world countries. For example, when I was in Islamabad, Pakistan (the capital) the city would routinely have a brown-out. That is, every so many hours, a specific sector of the town would not have any power due to them having to rotate it around. This is in their CAPITAL! The same for their other services. Sometimes water wouldn't work. Sometimes you couldn't buy gasoline. It sucked.

Now a lot of people come back from a country like that and say "Damn you silly American's have no idea how lucky you are." Yes, people here take a lot for granted, but isn't that a good thing? Isn't it nice that we don't have to worry about power being available, or if we're going to be able to buy some milk at the grocery store? Our society in America has evolved, and we should be proud that we have basic necessities and are able to argue over things like the environment, or gay rights, or human cloning, or going to the moon, or... immigration laws!

Yes that had a point. Guess what?! With our evolved society, there are a lot of jobs that we don't want. Working farms, picking fruit, some construction, basic labor like that. Because of that, US Farms have suffered tremendously. It's no big secret why we have to import most of our fruit. No Americans will work for a US farmer. The only option farmers have is to buy expensive equipment, which isn't an option for many single family non-corporated farms.


So now we are going to have a program to have immigrants fill these jobs no one wants. It's going to have a lot of positive effect on the country. First, it's going to create more diversity, which is what keeps this country the #1 nation in the world. Second, it's going to help many businessmen in America, primarily farmers (*hardly* the big rich companies you write of). Thirdly, these immigrants, being legal, will now be obligated to pay taxes. That only helps us tremendously! There are about 9 million Mexicans living in America, and almost 4.5 million are illegal! That's many billions in taxes we aren't getting. No more seeing 100's of people standing at a workcenter waiting, no hoping, for someone to come pick them up for a days pay in cash.

In conclusion, it's going to help create jobs. At least, jobs that already exist, except now America will benefit from them. Sure, there will be some people who exploit the system, but there's no such thing as perfection.

Who knows, maybe one day you'll eat a banana with a "Grown in the USA" label. For sure, there will be an immigrant who would love to make it happen.
rastaban
Jan. 9th, 2004 10:53 pm (UTC)
>>Who knows, maybe one day you'll eat a banana with a "Grown in the USA" label.

Then we'll know that global warming has gotten worse, also that we're becoming primarily an agricultural nation once again -- but that makes sense once all the manufacturing and technology jobs have been outsourced to other nations.
justgoto
Jan. 9th, 2004 10:45 pm (UTC)
Who would benefit by this policy? Surely not the Americans!
Mexicans will. The 31 cash crop of Mexico is oil, #2 is money sent to relatives from legal and illegal immigrants living in the US.

Devils advocate: But they are only taking jobs Us citizens wont take.
Me: Yes you are right, them people on welfare aren't going to touch them with a 10 foot fruit picker!

Devils advocate: But the price of lettuce will be 10¢ not $1!
Me: Cool, then we will only have to pay for the illegal immigrants or guest workers, or as Glenn Beck calls them, "SUPER AMERICANS" food stamps, health care and subsidize their housing! Unless they like to eat lettuce, and that lettuce has healing properties and the lettuce can be used to make bricks.
justgoto
Jan. 9th, 2004 10:46 pm (UTC)
Re: Oops!
Mexicans will. The #1 cash crop of Mexico is oil, #2 is money sent to relatives from legal and illegal immigrants living in the US.
frookie4u
Jan. 10th, 2004 08:31 pm (UTC)
Re: Oops!
the US and specifically the Bush administration has done a poor job of subsidizing housing and creating welfare for many of its *domestic* poor. Bush needs to address this issue, where to date he's done a fine job of deflecting attention away from it. I promise you that if new housing and health care is, in fact, created, Mexicans will be amongst the last to benefit. Also, what are your sources for stating that Mexico's #1 and #2 cash crops are oil, and money shipping, respectively? I had not heard that before.
justgoto
Jan. 11th, 2004 06:58 am (UTC)
Re: what are your sources
I heard it on a local talk show and tried to find the report yesterday but couldn't, but I searched today and found some interesting facts.



Sending Dollars to Latin America Wiring money home -- cheaply Credit unions cut costs for immigrants @t

Last year, immigrants in the United States sent $23 billion abroad.
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<b?they>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

I heard it on a local talk show and tried to find the report yesterday but couldn't, but I searched today and found some interesting facts.



<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/06/24/MN75880.DTL">Sending Dollars to Latin America Wiring money home -- cheaply Credit unions cut costs for immigrants @t </a>

Last year, immigrants in the United States sent $23 billion abroad. <b?They have become a vital source of national income throughout Latin America</b>, according to a study published last month by the Inter-American Development Bank's Multilateral Investment Fund.

More than $8 billion was sent to Mexico last year. <b>That's almost equal to tourism revenues</b> -- hence Fox's aggressive outreach campaign through Mexico's Office for Mexicans Living Abroad.

Now this is from people that use credit unions, I'm assuming legal immigrants, I wonder is the precentage is that doesn't use credit unions?


<a href="http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2003/09/07/immigrants_us_dollars_paying_off_in_homeland/">This article says the influx of money tops the tourist trade.</a>
In Mexico, the money sent by migrant workers living in the United States topped the amount spent by tourists or foreign investors, according to the Central Bank of Mexico.

<a href="http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/remittances.html">The Mexican state of Zacatecas receives $1 million per day from its former residents, according to a local migration expert. <b>That amount is more than what Zacatecas receives from the Mexico City government.</b>

In 2001, Mexico's National Population Council estimated as many as 1.3 million homes -- more than one out of 10 families -- depended on remittances as their main source of income.</a>

<a href="http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=mexmoney07&date=20030607">You have to sign up to the Seattle Times to view the article.</a>
The cross-border service, offered by the Mexican cement giant Cemex, is part of a scramble by financial and retail companies for a cut of the more than $10 billion that Mexicans abroad are expected to send home this year. The competition is driving down the once-excessive fees charged for moving these migradolares, or migrants' dollars, and allowing even bigger sums to flow into Mexico.

The exact dollar amount all depends on the article you read.

<a href="http://www.nctimes.net/news/2002/20020929/55133.html">And these funds are not only to help their families.</a>
Latino immigrants, particularly those who are well-established in this country, also send money home through hometown associations. Groups of immigrants living in the United States who are from the same town or village in the old country pool their money to send home for community improvements such as schools, medical clinics and recreational facilities.

In some cases, a group of hometown associations from a given state will band together to form a federation, as has been the case in the states of Zacatecas, Jalisco and Oaxaca, said Gaspar Rivera-Salgado, assistant professor of sociology, American studies and ethnicity at the University of Southern California. Those three state federations are composed respectively of 62, 42 and 38 hometown associations that are active in the United States, he said.


<a href="http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/5956032.htm">Mexico exports labor, not immigrants</a>

<a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Economy-of-Mexico">Mexico is one of the world's most trade dependent countries, and it is particularly dependent on trade with the U.S, which buys approximately 85% of its exports. Top U.S. exports to Mexico include motor vehicle parts, electronic equipment, and agricultural products. Top Mexican exports to the U.S. include petroleum, cars, and electronic equipment. There is considerable intra-company trade.
</a>

Chech the numbers with this <a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html#Econ">CIA fact sheet on Mexico's Economy</a>
justgoto
Jan. 11th, 2004 06:59 am (UTC)
Re: More
Sending Money Home...For Now: That is a little confusing.

Mexico's central bank reported that June remittances totaled $1.14 billion, an increase of 33 percent over the same month last year.


Let's not just talk Mexico here, this is a world wide affair.
Money remittances "instant remedy" for Latin American economies
Despite some obvious translation problems (e.g. "Venezuela received 235 billion dollars"), this article still makes clear how the dependence on easy money is growing.

I have tried to find a breakdown of exorts but failed but as you can see, this is a real problem!
frookie4u
Jan. 11th, 2004 07:02 am (UTC)
Re: More
I must say, I am very impressed with your research... even if I am too tired to tackle it right now. Will read through everything in the morning.
justgoto
Jan. 11th, 2004 07:26 am (UTC)
Re: new housing and health care Mexicans will be amongst the last to benefit
American-born kids of illegal immigrants get $1 billion in welfare aid

WASHINGTON - More than $1 billion of 1995 welfare payments and Food Stamps went to illegal immigrant families because some of their children are U.S. citizens, according to a new government report.

"It is important to note that citizen children are legally eligible for benefits on the same basis as other citizens, even if they have an illegal parent," said Brown.


Nationally, 224,000 households headed by an illegal immigrant received the Food Stamps and 153,000 households, many overlapping, got AFDC.

The immigrant families getting help were largely concentrated in California, New York, Texas and Arizona. California alone accounted for $720 million of the benefits paid. Ten percent of that state's AFDC and Food Stamp caseload is comprised of families headed by illegal immigrants.

Although comprehensive data was not available from Social Security, GAO auditors estimated that as of December 1996, at least 3,450 citizen children of illegal immigrants were getting SSI at an annual cost to the government of about $17.6 million.

Until recently, citizenship status was not considered when HUD determined eligibility for rental assistance programs, and the agency did not keep such information about participants.

eleutheria
Jan. 9th, 2004 11:08 pm (UTC)
There is really no way of knowing how the law will affect anyone. If it is a disaster, i bet enough people will not back a president next time around that supports it. We'll see.
frookie4u
Jan. 10th, 2004 08:41 pm (UTC)
enough people dismiss it as a matter of principle, already. And, a lot of hispanics will support it on a matter of principle also, not realizing the drastic drawbacks that this bill has. Hard to get people to think for themselves, on either side of the fence, and not just follow precedents or popular opinion.
scotteiland
Jan. 9th, 2004 11:53 pm (UTC)
I'm not thrilled with the guest-worker thing because Bush isn't doing what needs to be done and using military resources to back up the border patrol so the drug smugglers and criminals can't get in.

However, I still support him. No one on the Democrat side of the aisle would have the guts to do something about the immigration issue, especially in an election year. Like it or not, President Bush leads. Sometimes people disagree with leaders.

Clinton never would have come up with something like this. He'd be too busy focus-grouping the issue to death.

Clinton was all talk and no action. Bush is action, without a lot of talk.

So we may not like what he's doing, but this guest worker thing should bring people out of the shadows, and hopefully we'll at least know who they are.

But we should be using the military to help the border patrol in Arizona Texas new Mexico and california. That would actually solve the problem, or at least make it tougher to cross the border.

frookie4u
Jan. 10th, 2004 08:35 pm (UTC)
Sometimes people disagree with leaders...

Considering the controversy regarding Bush's election, and the fact that for the first time, a president is in office that the people didnt actually *elect*, I can agree with you completely that this is true.
scotteiland
Jan. 11th, 2004 04:25 am (UTC)
Man, if you liberal Democrats don't get over the 2000 election thing, we'll be watching decades of Republican control.

frookie4u
Jan. 11th, 2004 04:30 am (UTC)
?
kamerryn
Feb. 13th, 2004 05:25 am (UTC)
Re:
"this guest worker thing should bring people out of the shadows, and hopefully we'll at least know who they are."

Funny you should say that, that's exactly what cynical me thought the whole point of it was in the first place when I heard.
frookie4u
Jan. 10th, 2004 08:21 pm (UTC)
Yes, but...
The Bush administration started off with immigration on the top of its agenda, considering a bill that would allow students in good legal and academic standing to become citizens and attend US colleges; however, September 11th and the war on Iraq (which Bush was planning even before the attack on the WTC) any sort of immigraiton reform has come to a halt. The result is that Mexico and other Latin and South American countires have been ignored for the last two years, and then suddenly Bush presents this bill in a blatant attempt to get the hispanic vote -- he needs 40% of the hispanic population, at least. Bush is not doing this for the well-being of either employers OR illegal immigrants, he is doing it to support his own purposes. Now, maybe he could focus on the unemployment issue? a measely 1,000 new jobs were created according to the last government report, and the net loss of jobs since Bush took office has been of 2 million. By all accounts the economy is surging, but the number of homeless, of unemployed, and of those unprotected by welfare has risen dramatically. In other words, they are deceptive figures. So if you want to argue about unemployment, there are many things to criticise about the bush administration that don't have to do with immigration at all. I don't see how "more suing, more unwanted pregnancies, more crime, higher taxes" can result from this law, to the degree that you would present it. This bill would actually bind workers to a single employer for their whole tenure in the states (up to 6 years) practically guaranteeing unfairness and abuse. An employer can deport a worker if he doesnt do what he wants. I dont see how this would "benefit" illegal immigrants. An illegal immigrant, whose actions are dominated by fear, who is humbled by his lack of education and English, would not be likely to jump up and start suing employers. The exploitation would be the other way around. Unwatned pregnancies, more crime... those are just stereotypes. What justification do you have for this? if a worker is desperate enough to wade rivers, risk 120 degree border crossings, leave his family and his home, he is not likely to piss it away on stupid things that might get him deported. I would argue that these are among the most hard-working groups you could find. Bush has cut taxes so much that I hardly see how you can argue "higher taxes" legitimately, and even so, there are domestic healthcare problems that must be dealt with as well, possibly by higher taxes also. How about the drastic increase in the war budget, the massive spending on the Iraq issue? Yes, Bush is a man of actions... but I think that thought-out inaction is better than rash action. Look at the consequences.

I merely ask you not to reject immigration laws out of hand just because they might "benefit" illegal workers. These people suffer a lot, and, if you analyze it, there is no real benefit for them here. The main appeal is that workers would be able to travel back to their home country, but they would be forced to go back to their countries after six years also. For many, it would be preferable to remain anonymous and without these supposed "benefits" than to expose themselves onto to risk deportation at some future date. I agree that somethign must be done about immigration problem, but the majority of illegal workers are poor, uneducated rural farmers unable to make a living from their crops. The United States and other powerful countries have crippled the economies of developping countries and prevented economic growth due to their incredibly defensive agricutural laws. These in essence reward American farmers for overproduction by buying the surplus. So, while the US complains about illegal citizens, it is in large part their policies that prevent these people to make a decent living domestically in the first place. Additionally, this bill is largely directed at Mexico, but would be of very little benefit to other latin and south american countries, such as columbia and brazil.
frookie4u
Jan. 10th, 2004 08:26 pm (UTC)
cont'd
Speaking as a Mexican Citizen, I don't support this law, either. i don't see it as being good for *anyone* -- except for American employers who would get cheap labor and basically a white card for coersion. It would create a difficult situation both for the US trying to get hte people to go back after six years, and the illegal immigrants who don't want to be deported. I do not blindly defend illegal immigrants, I'd ask that you not blindly dismiss them. We both oppose this bill -- we agree on the outcome, if not necessarily the reasons. Don't vote for Bush.
tigron_x
Jan. 11th, 2004 03:19 am (UTC)
So many Americans without jobs, but they don't want to work at the same time too. The jobs available to the immigrants are jobs most people don't want to do or don't know how to do and don't want to learn how to do. A lot of work ethic in this country has dropped. It went to "give me more money and I'll do the job right; if not, I'll just continue to half ass the work." Businesses lose money if they decided to give the employee more money to do the initial job they got hired for in the first place to help make them money, but now they want more money after the work isn't done right? Sorry..it doesn't work that way. I'll hire someone who will do the work right otherwise what's the point? Immigrants come around and will do the work but for even less money than the current employee? Hell yeah! Give me more of that.

Those out of work will have to either use there head and decide whether to do the work they didn't want to do or find other ways to find work, but obviously there's work out there! We're passing a bill to allow immigrants an easier way to work here! Business can expand and increase spending in new areas with the money they save creating jobs, but if no American wants to get their hands dirty to help a business grow then they won't grow into a better position if businesses can't grow. If you look at the market too, you see more and more businesses starting too. More and more people are signing up for DBA's or getting incorporated. I wonder why... Any smart man with good work ethics and a will to live and survive will find a way to put food on the table and a roof under the heads of his/her family, yet we need a bill to help immigrants have it easier to work in this country. Hmm... I wonder why again? (the why's are sarcasam by the way.)

On top of it all, you have more jobs opening up to people to file and keep these work visas organized. Also, people are needed to process the information. Who said anything about allowing border patrol to get lazy by doing this? No, increased border potrol would be better. Why? (not sarcasam this time) You have people willingly going through the right passage ways to get into this country instead of the wrong way, leaving less people who are willing to risk their lives to get across the borders, and allowing more man power to protect our borders from terrorists.

Hmm... I support this bill.
I'll tell you what I don't like or support, Welfare or Social Security. It hurts people from being creative, self supportive, and self independent in a nation that defines growth and independence. You can't find a job? Then quit using your ass and use your head to make one. Independence and freedom is something to fight for. Well, what makes financial independence and freedom any different?
kamerryn
Feb. 13th, 2004 05:26 am (UTC)
Re:
Hi Tigron, long time no see. I hope you and yours are well.
tigron_x
Feb. 17th, 2004 10:22 pm (UTC)
Re:
Yeah long time bro. They are all doing great. I hope you can say the same.
kamerryn
Feb. 19th, 2004 01:41 pm (UTC)
Re:
Sure can :)
( 25 comments — Leave a comment )

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