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Throwing Koran In Toilet, Arab World, Muslims, Islam



A college student was recently arrested for throwing a Koran in a toilet.

Why can't we understand that people from all over the world, have a right to believe and practice their beliefs? Why can't we just all respect that fact and not do as this guy did by throwing the Koran into a toilet? I personally find it very offensive that this guy did this, to desecrate a copy of the Koran, which is the physical proof of Islam for millions upon millions of Muslims. We as Americans would be very upset if someone threw our Holy Bible into a toilet!

I'm positive this college asshole wouldn't have the balls to throw the Koran into a toilet, if he were living in the Arab world!

We really should pay more attention to what this great man of wisdom, Benito Juárez, once said:

"Entre los INDIVIDUOS, como entre las NACIONES, el RESPETO al DERECH AJENO es la PAZ."

Translation:
Among individuals, as well as among nations, respecting what belongs to others is PEACE!!

Thoughts please!

What does freedom of speech and freedom of expression mean to you?

Should we as Americans be allowed to do and say anything we wish without fear of arrest? Why?




Playgirl's
Música do Brasil
Este Seu Olhar

Comments

( 98 comments — Leave a comment )
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donchep
Aug. 1st, 2007 07:42 pm (UTC)
Out of curiosity, where was he arrested for this? And was he arrested for desecrating a Koran or flooding a toilet? I don't support religious intolerance but if he bought his own Koran and tossed it in his own toilet (without flushing) I'm sure his rights are protected.

I agree with everythign else you said, but I am not sure I agree with the arrest without further information on what he was charged for.
p0stmdrnpr1mt1v
Aug. 1st, 2007 09:53 pm (UTC)
it might have been considered a "hate crime", like burning a cross on someone's lawn
(no subject) - donchep - Aug. 1st, 2007 09:58 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - poetpaladin - Aug. 2nd, 2007 10:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
photosexual
Aug. 1st, 2007 07:47 pm (UTC)
I suppose if throwing *anything* into a toilet were illegal where the college student was at the time, then it's ok to arrest them for it. As for what went into the toilet? At that point it doesn't matter, unless it's ok to throw stuff into toilets, depending upon what that item is. Apparently it's a crime to throw the Koran in the toilet. Bad college kid! Bad! No bong hit!

As for religion, I think it's all a bunch of crap, but I respect the right of anyone who wants to make it a part of their lifestyle or beliefs to do so, as long as they don't harm others via it or try to impose their beliefs unwillingly upon others. As a teen, I thought it was fun to taunt various religious groups for sheer sport. As I got older, I don't have reason to do that, nor interest.

While the college student may have done it simply for the publicity you're giving them now, that doesn't mean it's smart or right. Then again, it's not wrong, either. It's a book in a toilet.

Granted, the Muslims find it their physical proof of Islam, and christains find no physical proof of jesus but still believe in it with 'faith'. When it's all just beliefs, things can go pretty weirdly, as this incident suggests.

I don't think that freedom of speech or expression should be limitless though - no. It's a broad topic that's been better defined by others over the years, but expressing an opinion (like throwing a book in a toilet) ought to be free enough that anyone can do it as a statement of their feelings or the provocation of emotion from others. If it were the malicious vandalization of an individual's property, that's different. (if I took a book from you and threw your property in the toilet, effectively ruining it, as example - vs. buying my own copy and dunking it as a statement of what I think.) But otherwise, expressing opinion of putting a religious text in a place where people expel bodily waste is just somebody's way of delivering the message that they don't agree with somebody else's 'free speech' in printed form. There's a million ways to communicate. Book in toilet is one. I neither support nor condone the act, simply recognize it.






playgirl
Aug. 4th, 2007 06:33 pm (UTC)
What has me now worried about the incident is the fact that the guy was arrested under felony charges. Although, I find anyone who chooses to demonstrate their intolerance for any giving thing, with religious articles, or the American Flag repulsive, arresting him worries the hell out of me, because this country’s most cherished possession has always had freedom of speech and expression. There have been countless of American soldiers who have willingly fought and lost their lives for this American right. I just can’t help but worry, if our government will someday take these rights away from us.
dlanor
Aug. 1st, 2007 08:02 pm (UTC)
Freedom of Speech
Not freedom to be a total asshole or freedom to be a stupid idiot. Somehow our founding fathers did not have assholes like that in mind.

People should always be responsible for their own actions. You do what you do, you pay the price. Terminal stupidity being a major factor.

PRAY FOR PEACE Do not be in favor of a war on terror. The two are opposite.
thewalkingman
Aug. 1st, 2007 09:16 pm (UTC)
Re: Freedom of Speech
Freedom of speech is exactly the freedom to be an asshole or a stupid idiot. It's the freedom to say whatever you feel the need to say, no matter how asinine or volatile. Once you start regulating and punishing that, it ceases to be freedom of speech.
tigron_x
Aug. 1st, 2007 08:11 pm (UTC)
What does freedom of speech and freedom of expression mean to you?

It means I have a God given right to talk and express whatever I want. However, that doesn't mean there aren't consequences to my words and actions. If I bring harm to another or his/her property or if I violate one's rights and liberties with my words or expressions, then I have violated the law.

And a bruised ego is not harm. This guy acted in protest against the islamic religion. Nothing more. He didn't violate anyone's rights or liberties and he did not harm anyone. He may have harmed property by flushing things down the toilet that aren't suppose to be flushed down the toilet. And that's it.


Should we as Americans be allowed to do and say anything we wish without fear of arrest? Why?

Allowed? What makes you think you need to ask permission to be alive? Either you're alive or you're not. If you're alive you can say whatever you want. Here is a question for you though.. Do you honestly think the Bill of Rights gave you those rights listed, or did it simply restrict the government from acting against those God given rights you gained by becoming born into this world?

You know the answer is the latter. So the true question you're asking is: Can anyone say anything they want or express themselves anyway they want?

And the answer is yes as long as their words do not bring harm to another or his/her property or it doesn't violate one's liberties and rights.

playgirl
Aug. 2nd, 2007 03:18 am (UTC)
ALL Muslims devoted to the Koran 100% of the time
No, he didn't violate anyone's rights or liberties, but as for his actions not harming anyone, I believe they did. Muslims are unlike we Christians, where many Christians are between green and dry, because most go to church once a week for one or two hours, and often times not at all. ALL Muslims on the other hand, are devoted to the Koran 100% of their time.

The actions of Shmulevich will only cause the Muslim world to hate us even more than they already do, and I'm positive they will retaliate.

Shmulevich gained nothing by doing the despicable thing he did with the Koran, just as those American bastards who burn our American flag.

Don't get me wrong, I cherish our freedom of expression and speech, but I do believe many times we go way too far.
Re: No they aren't! - tigron_x - Aug. 2nd, 2007 04:39 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
playgirl
Aug. 3rd, 2007 02:19 pm (UTC)
Re: Throwing anything in the toilet
Thank goodness it isn't illegal for being stupid in this country. The jails would be busting at the seams if it were! :o)

I also believe in freedom of speech and expression, but how I wish these people would choose some other means of expression their intolerance, instead of using religious symbols, holy books, or our flag.
Re: Throwing anything in the toilet - playgirl - Aug. 4th, 2007 05:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
capnstinkypants
Aug. 1st, 2007 08:12 pm (UTC)
Hate Crime
Is the guy an asshole...Yeah probably.

Should he get charged with vandalism if it was school property.. yeah

Should get get charged with vandalism if it flooded the bathroom... yeah

Should he be charged with HATE CRIMES for destroying a book...Most definitely not.

I'm not sure of a lot of the particulars of his case but out of those three options the only one that I AM sure of is the fact that he is being charged with a hate crime.

I think that is overdoing it.
playgirl
Aug. 4th, 2007 05:36 pm (UTC)
Re: Hate Crime
I really don't know too much about the case, but he's been placed under arrest under felony charges.

As much as I abhor what he did with the Koran, I agree with you that the charges against him were too harsh, which has caused me concern that the manner in which he's been reprimanded, is the beginning of ebbing away, little by little, our right to freedom of speech and expression.
astrixas
Aug. 1st, 2007 08:30 pm (UTC)
I dated Benito Juárez great, great grand daughter, he was a very interesting man!
playgirl
Aug. 3rd, 2007 02:22 pm (UTC)
That is awesome! I'm sure her house was fill with some pretty interesting Benito Juárez antiques from the past!
(no subject) - astrixas - Aug. 3rd, 2007 02:50 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - playgirl - Aug. 4th, 2007 04:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
inspectorjury
Aug. 1st, 2007 08:34 pm (UTC)
We must allow freedom of speech. It is easy to back freedom of speech when the people are doing and talking something you agree with. But, it is important that you believe in freedom of speech when those people are saying something you abhor. For no matter your views or opinions there is someone who will disagree with you. So does that mean because you have detractors that you should not be allowed to express yourself? I say NO!!!
I agree that the actions of throwing the Koran into a toilet was not right. It was disrespectful and in poor taste. But, if we shut him up because we disagree with him then do we shut up next? People who want to carry guns? See what I mean?
playgirl
Aug. 2nd, 2007 03:01 am (UTC)
Jesus Christ and Allah
Yes, I see what you mean, but why must those things which are considered holy, be it Christianity or Islam, be the instrument for expressing intolerance?

I recently ventured into a certain LJ community, and was appalled at a picture of Jesus Christ that was posted by someone. Never had I seen such horror. It was the epitome of perversion.

Yes, our freedom of expression is our most prized possessions, but why are there people who go beyond blasphemy when it comes to expressing their views when it comes to Jesus Christ and Allah? I just don't understand.
Re: Jesus Christ and Allah - tigron_x - Aug. 2nd, 2007 04:44 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Jesus Christ and Allah - inspectorjury - Aug. 2nd, 2007 06:02 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Jesus Christ and Allah - playgirl - Aug. 2nd, 2007 06:25 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Jesus Christ and Allah - moon_shine3 - Aug. 2nd, 2007 07:55 am (UTC) - Expand
adameros
Aug. 1st, 2007 08:37 pm (UTC)
I think what the student did was disrespectful, but I also think that under the freedom of speach, he had every right to do it.

People have every right to express their views on politics, religion, and life in general, as long as it doesn't involve physically harming someone else or their property.

Freedom of expression means I can say "I think George Bush sucks," and I don't have the police kicking in my door.

It means we can debate issues and let people decide for themselves how they feel.

Take racism for example. Freedom of speach means neo-nazi's can denigrate minorities with hate speech, but it also means that others can refute what those people say. And as hate groups seem to be in decline, the process works.

I suspect the best way to try to encourage a movement is to try to censor it and try to stop people from talking about that movement or it's cause.

I can not think of any government that has allowed freedom of speech and has been over thrown by it's own people. I can think of many countries that do not allow freedom of speech and have been over thrown.
playgirl
Aug. 3rd, 2007 02:36 pm (UTC)
Freedom of expression means I can say "I think George Bush sucks," and I don't have the police kicking in my door.

Oh yes, he sucks!

Yes, he had the freedom to do so, or did he? because his actions were considered a felony, and faces about 4 years in prison if convicted.

I do feel he should be punished for destroying public property, buy only by paying for the book he destroyed.

I personally find what he did with the Koran, just as offensive as if he'd have thrown the Holy Bible into the toilet.
(no subject) - adameros - Aug. 3rd, 2007 03:57 pm (UTC) - Expand
ninjaguydan
Aug. 1st, 2007 08:39 pm (UTC)
1st amendment, free speech...

2nd amendment, guarantees my right to say whatever the hell I want to say.



People should be able to keep midgets as pets, there I said it!
-)
playgirl
Aug. 2nd, 2007 06:35 am (UTC)
Aye Aye Aye Dan
Aye Aye Aye Dan! Midgets? Don't be so cruel.
Re: Aye Aye Aye Dan - ninjaguydan - Aug. 2nd, 2007 03:34 pm (UTC) - Expand
ceparker72
Aug. 1st, 2007 10:40 pm (UTC)
I have to agree with what most have said here...
Though what he did may be disrespectful to many, he has the right to freely express his opinion as long as he is not harming others. That is what makes this country so wonderful. I can express my opinion without the fear of being arrested, locked up, etc. Where was he arrested? If he was in the US they have no right to lock him up for that, unless of course the ACT of him throwing a Koran down the toilet caused damage, etc. or it was a stolen copy, something like that. Or it was taken from a Muslim and done in the fashion of a hate crime. Hate crimes should not be tolerated. I guess I would have to hear more about that situation before I form a solid opinion about him and what he did in general.

As an American I would not be offended if someone threw a Bible in the toilet. I would more then likely want to know the reasoning behind it, but I would not be offended if someone chose to express their opinion, disbeliefs, etc. in such a matter.(I would be more puzzled than anything, down the toilet? Wouldn't that cause damage on your part? Isn't there a better way to express your beliefs? But whatever...) Because to me a Bible is a book, written by man. You can destroy a Bible, but God is still inside of me, in my heart. And no one can destroy that.
playgirl
Aug. 2nd, 2007 02:36 pm (UTC)
Revenge
Yes, he does have the right, and thank God he does, to express his opinion, but sometimes expressions go a little too far, where the innocent end up paying for what that wrong doer has said or done, because of revenge, and the word revenge frightens me.

Revenge: (also vengeance, retribution, or vendetta amongst others) consists primarily of retaliation against a person or group in response to a perceived wrongdoing. Although many aspects of revenge resemble or echo the concept of justice, revenge usually has a more injurious than harmonious goal. The vengeful wish consists of forcing the perceived wrongdoer to suffer the same pain that they inflicted in the first place.
- From Wikipedia

tigron_x
Aug. 1st, 2007 10:59 pm (UTC)
Here something you should be concerned about in regards to freedom of speech and expression.

This executive order below is aimed at citizens. In essence, under this executive order, opposing the war becomes an illegal act.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html

duoraven
Aug. 2nd, 2007 09:05 pm (UTC)
You exaggerate
"all property and interests in property [of persons under U.S. jurisdiction]...are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in [of such persons] determined by the Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense,

(i) to have committed, or to pose a significant risk of committing, an act or acts of violence that have the purpose or effect of: (A) threatening the peace or stability of Iraq or the Government of Iraq; or (B) undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and political reform in Iraq or to provide humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people;

(ii) to have materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, logistical, or technical support for, or goods or services in support of, such an act or acts of violence or any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order; or

(iii) to be owned or controlled by, or to have acted or purported to act for or on behalf of, directly or indirectly, any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order.

"your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins"; opposing the war does not equal violence.
Re: You're blind - tigron_x - Aug. 2nd, 2007 10:17 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: You're blind - duoraven - Aug. 2nd, 2007 11:50 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: You're blind - tigron_x - Aug. 3rd, 2007 12:47 am (UTC) - Expand
mindme
Aug. 1st, 2007 11:59 pm (UTC)
If he bought the Koran with his own money, he was doing nothing more than damaging his own property. (If he damaged the toilet, he should be charged for vandalism then.) All religions are ideas. They seek to get their ethics in the culture and sometimes enshrined in law. Like any idea they don't deserve a priori respect. All ideas in our culture must earn respect. In our culture all ideas are open to the full weight of criticism. Sometimes that's not pretty. Putting a cross in a jar of piss. Putting a Koran in a toilet. I don't see the difference.
playgirl
Aug. 4th, 2007 05:55 pm (UTC)
Although, I do find it appalling that the man used the Koran to desecrate, I find it odd and hypocritical that Congress allows the burning of the American flag, but arrests this odious man for throwing the Koran in the toilet.

I believe the book was school property.

By and by, it does worry me very much that the man was arrested under felony charges.
neo_prodigy
Aug. 2nd, 2007 12:14 am (UTC)
wait! the college student was arrested here in america?

was it his personal copy of the koran? and was he in a public restroom. they might be able to give him a citation on vandalism or something but even that's a stretch.

i'm appalled that he would do something so hateful but he shouldn't be arrested for it.

yoko ono (sp?) ripped up a bible several years back during a performance on stage and no one blinked an eye.

i'm pretty much along the same lines on this as you are.
playgirl
Aug. 4th, 2007 06:22 pm (UTC)
Yes he was arrested in America, and although it disgusts me that he threw the Koran in the toilet, but it frightens more that he was arrested for felony charges, and faces a possible 4 years in the penitentiary.

I pray this isn't the beginning of the end for our freedom of speech and expression!!
a_phoenix
Aug. 2nd, 2007 12:23 am (UTC)
Yes, unfortunately this apparently was an example of intolerance just as is happening many times from the Muslim world. Until all people learn to accept each other as people, we won't have peace. This does not mean we have to personally agree with them, but accept each other and not focus on the differences.
playgirl
Aug. 4th, 2007 06:16 pm (UTC)
I find it so hard to believe that this world has been drenched in blood since the beginning of time, and all in the name of religion.

Sadly, it will continue until the end of time. I hope we all won't gag too much on the word RELIGION when we parish.
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