I'm sorry you had to work so hard "not to erupt in a rage" and that you find my "beliefs totally sickening." And as for the "sarcastic" stuff, you shouldn't of bothered to delete them, I'm not easily offended.

The derogatory comments which have been made about me are child's play.

I must admit, I was quite surprised to find how you made fun of me in yours and others journals. I just didn't expect that from you. You may rest assured that I will be up-front with you and whatever disagreement I may have with you, I will let YOU know.

When I read your views in my journal, I did not re-act in the way you did, but read with respect and an open mind, your feelings on these issues. You say that I believe very firmly in what I'm told. Yes I do, just you believe firmly what you are told. And please bare in mind that I am not the enemy.

Your friend "fromaway" says that with people like me, she'd prefer to "just hit and run" or pay someone to kick me in the head because of my "totally loathsome views." If she has to pray to "Jesus Murphy" 'cause she finds me "scary" then she has a big problem. Funny, I'm not surprised at all, at her violently hateful and vindictive outbursts toward me.

I will soon prepare my rebuttal, but I must first make something very clear. My comments about freedom of speech have been greatly misconstrued. I AM totally for freedom of speech, and for freedom to demonstrate publically our political views. What I am AGAINST is VIOLENT American demonstrators throwing rocks at police, breaking windows, looting, urinating on sidewalks, breaking fire hydrants, blocking those who have to get to work, starting fires and BURNING OUR AMERICAN FLAG. Our right to demonstrate is supposed to be conducted in a peaceful, non-violent manner.

Thank God for freedom of speech, these are one of the many reasons our BRAVE men and women are placing their lives on the line for. What I've tried to express IS that we are now at war. No amount of demonstration is going to stop this fact. I feel that all Americans should Unite and stand behind our troops. I REPEAT, I am for freedom of speech and demonstration! I am against VIOLENT demonstrations! And PLEASE don't hate me because I remain loyal to America, President Bush and our brave troops!

sexylegsplaygirl.com

Comment moved as requested:

I don't hate you. I don't even know you.
But you seem to be defending a lot of things I do hate.

I don't believe what I am told, my first reaction to most things is not to believe it - expecially if a politician or media person is saying it. I believe what I have been shown credible evidence for. I have a training in history, so therefore have a good ability to question sources for bias.

This means that if I read in the BBC how great our "heroic" troops are, I question that because I got it from the BBC with all the associated bias. If I hear from "The Money Programme" (also on the BBC) about the economic factors behind the war in a programme which consults with major world experts who I have heard of elsewhere and presents its information in a relatively neutral way, then I am inclined to believe at least some of what they say about the economic factors.

When I hear the same thing from many different sources that would usually disagree with each other, then I am even more inclined to believe it. Of course we can never be certain that anything is "True" - truth is of course subjective.

And you are right, I should perhaps of left more of an explanation in my original comment about why I find your beliefs sickening (please note that I can seperate your beliefs from you as a person). Although I don't think that at any time I have actually said that you have no right to hold them - or made any assumptions about you because you do.

I am interested though that you do not seem to have responded to any of the points raised in my post. I would be really interested to see what you thought of the list of dates in particular?

Thank you for responding, I do appreciate the chance to debate this.

Additionally - You find the burning of a flag violent. I find the burning and banning of books violent. The government of the US has burned and banned books in the recent past. Just a thought.

Your words of patriotism and understanding ring loud and clear. It's good to find somebody who is NOT afraid to be, not necessarily pro-war, but PRO-AMERICAN

I can understand your rage. Regretably freedom of speech and freedom of protest can be painful at times.

Regretabbly I am at a stage in my life where I must question my loyalty for America. Much has been made of loyalty to the Bush Administration being equatable with loyalty to the countr. So much so that I feel in order to maintain my beliefs about domestic and foreign policy I will have to become a citizen of another country so I won't be disloyal!

When I talk about the failings of America it is not to say that this is a bad country. I am not bashing the people who put their lives on the lines to serve the country the best way they know how. I mean to show that government and corperations in America are commiting costly wrongs, that people should know about these failures, that these lessons must be learned before it is too late. It pains me to recall how the US had the potential to be the greatest country in the history of the world, much like Great Britain during it's period of empire. A lot of good has been done, but so many wrongs have been done in the name of America, so little has been done to repair the damage, that it is difficult to keep in perspective.

I know that there are many people, yourself included, who welcome disent in all but it's most extreme forms. Still, when I turn on the TV and see all these references to how disent is anti-american, it causes great pain as if that is the view all people have. Bah, I am probably being selective in what I see, taking the negative claims against dissent to great to heart.

13 Stars 13 Stripes united this country building an extremely strong foundation. 50 Stars 13 Stripes strengthened this country. This counrty, tho young, has come a long way and still leads in its inovation in the world front in pursuit of happiness as well as the front to bring freedom to those less fortinate individuals. Not to mention those we've helped will help us in the time of need. Before that, we tried to isolate ourselves from the world but it didnt happen because of the stronger forces at play here. Because of these forces, I can't blame those who burn the flag for their beliefs because there has to be a message behind it. Each voice needs to be heard wether we want to hear it or not. I personally want to understand what would make someone burn our flag. I have to go back to the vision that founded this country which wasn't just something some guys just sat around and thought up. It strung from their beliefs. Do a little research on what these men believed in and the greatness of this country will be revieled. It is the most important piece to the strength of this country because it is the foundation of this country. Is it truely that startling that as the foundation is eroded away out of the culture of our people that that symbol of our country is burned? Just like with your home. If you have a foundation problem, then you're gonna have a problem with your house. Let it go on long enough and the corruption will bring the house down. Actions speak louder than words. We can say those who burn our flag are ignorant, and in a way they are, we all are, but they do know something is wrong and they cant quite express it in words or put their finger on it. They look to the government for help as well as to blame; its their way of fighting for righteousness. I don't agree with them because I agree with Thomas Jefferson who said, "A government that governs least, governs best." Get to the message I see in the burning of "The Red, White, and Blue" of this country is just the representation of how the United Sated of America's symbol was replaced by the greed for the green. Including other sins but thats a major part of the corruption in America. It will take a lot of inovation to change it all back to the alligned vision our forefathers had. There has been about 80 years of foundation problems, and its still accumulating. It will keep on until people realize where the idea of America strung from. If you read my other posts, then you know what I believe.

Livid with rage? Well it's your journal so emote away... violence is a charged word after all. Hmm... This reminds me of the administration attempt to redefine terrorism to include all computer hacking. I'd prefer it if people didn't try to alter the meanings of words to support their agenda, but hey, that's meme-war for you.

The politicization of linguistics *sigh*

Symbols have only such power as we give them. But that power can be immense. The Klan's burning crosses come to mind.

But about the flag, try to bear in mind that "the symbol is NOT the thing symbolized; the word is NOT the thing; the map is NOT the territory it stands for" (quoting a Linguistics prof, but this topic also came up for me somewhere in high school, probably in English.)

Below are two sites worth a look. There are whole books on the flag burning topic.

http://www.esquilax.com/flag/index2.html
http://www.flagburning.org/

I'll crosspost some of my comments on all this to another forum. If you want to be quoted (with or without attribution) you must let me know

Heya! Every time i search for users most like me you come up at the top of the list... which is why I read your journal and now feel compelled to share my views on the flag burning issue + american culture bashing.

I live in Australia and recently in my home city of Perth our flag was burned in the city centre. I didn't feel that those people were disrespecting those who had fought for the country and made it what it is.. but rather making a statement that they do not like the decisions that our leaders are making today and that they do not approve of the direction the country seems to be headed. That is their opinion, the statement is bold and they are entitled through freedom of thought and speech to do that. And if people really feel so strongly as to burn the flag; basically saying that they are ashamed to be part of our nation then that is an issue which needs to be known and addressed by our leaders... not censored.

You say that your country is a paradise, and much better in comparison to others. Well, hell, in Australia we enjoy the same freedom and luxury as you guys but I can not deny the fact that for me to live this way there are at least 3 third world slaves slogging their guts out and feeling like shit; having their environment, culture and family royally screwed by people from the priviledged west. And that makes me sad... i dont know what to do about it. But I certainly cant say that I am proud of what the west (ie europe, USA, Australia) has done to other nations in the name of progress.

I know a lot of people must have had thoughts on your entries but if you have time please let me know your thoughts :)

Did a similar interest search and came up with ya. I like what you have to say.
So just sayin hi.
I was going to comment, but I'm "discussed out" for the moment :)

For all Saddam Hussein lovers, how would you like to be a Kurd or a Shiite choking on the gasses emitting from an artillery shells and/or missiles delivered by Saddam?

Hmm, well, I guess the fact that American politicians were having tea with him the day he did that doesn't matter, and neither does the fact that the American ambassador to Iraq greenlighted the invasion of Kuwait...


You have the nerve to talk about babies being bombed - what about all the babies that have died in this GRUESOME manner?

Hmm, maybe Rumsfeld et al. should have thought of that before selling the weapons to Saddam, eh what?


Saddam has used these weapons on those who disagree with him in Iraq. Saddam has used these weapons on neighboring countries.

Where did he get these weapons again? Oh, wait, that's right - US. Well, technically you, since Canada's too small to be much in the WMD business, but you know what I mean.

As for the comments about me - hmm. Obviously you don't read anything very carefully. Colour me shocked. It's useless to engage people like you in debate; you run on tribalism and emotion (yeah, burning a flag is a "violent act" - whatever, I think you need to cut the Hitler-Jugend bullshit and start thinking about actual morals rather than blind loyalty to a nation that has dealt out plenty of misery in its day).

Hi there. I did a search for users by common interest, and you came up number 1 [I bet you get that a lot ;)]. I have sworn not to get into any "war" debates on LiveJournal, but I must admit my views are pretty close to yours. Even though I'm sitting out the war discussions, I'm adding you to my friends list, because the exchange of ideas here is very interesting reading.

Hi! I also found your journal searching common interests, and I'm finding that I agree with alot of what you say. There's so much I'd love to add to what has been said but I'm in class right now and my prof would probably notice the increase in my typing if i were to get started, lol. I do plan to join in later though. :-)

Ohyeah... you're going on my favorites... I totally agree with you so far on everysingle word you've stated so far. Kudos, my friend. ::stands, applauding wildly::

What is so sad is that topics like this are so rich with opinions and harsh words. I find it much easier to believe that all people have opinions and its OK for them to have them, but to down someone for having one is so SAD.

Burning the American Flag, is a crime in my eyes, not just because I am American, but because it does symbolize many things for many people, and to burn it is to *shit* on those who have cares.

Why burn it, to show how you feel about those who admire or care about the flag, thats why.

Oh, I'm a good old Rebel soldier, now that's just what I am;
For this "Fair Land of Freedom" I do not give a damn!
I'm glad I fit against it, I only wish we'd won,
And I don't want no pardon for anything I done.

I hates the Constitution, this "Great Republic," too!
I hates the Freedman's Bureau and uniforms of blue!
I hates the nasty eagle with all its brags and fuss,
And the lying, thieving Yankees, I hates 'em wuss and wuss!

I hates the Yankee nation and everything they do,
I hates the Declaration of Independence, too!
I hates the "Glorious Union" -- 'tis dripping with our blood,
And I hates their striped banner, and I fit it all I could.

Not one of them can prove their accusations. Sure we sold Iraq 4% of his weapons, Germany sold over 50%. Sure we sold Iraq some pesticides but after we found out what they were using them for, France took over the chemical sales. Here is the most damning page I can find about that time when we supposedly sold him chemical and biological weapons, they say nothing of the sort! They also say Saddam was our puppet for 15 years, it was only 7 years and Saddam listens to no one!

About burning the flag; The flag represents more than 50 stars or 13 stripes, the flag represents our country as a whole, everything about it; along with the freedom of speech. If they burn the flag, they spit on their freedom of speech. It's just dumb, the only ones I have seen do that in the past were terrorists, if they want to align themselves with the terrorists, that's their problem.

Talking about speech; funny how when you speak it is some sort of violation of their speech. They also tell you that right in your own journal, (where you give them a platform to speak!)

They tell us that we killed 417 innocent people! That is just amazing! We have decimated an entire army in 14 days and only killed 417 civilians! No one has ever cared about innocent life that much, EVER! We could easily have killed them all without losing 1 coalition troop. Saddam has killed millions; they really have no case at all.

I could go on and on but most of the other stuff is about Mars or something so...

It's not worth arguing with them; they all have heard the facts before but refuse to listen them.

seriously, patriots like George Washington and PARTICULARLY Thomas Jefferson would be horrified if they learned that people were, like, totally disgracing the blood and sweat and hard work of people who've defended this country. The people who have DIED defending each and every American's right to say what it wants about this country, which is a guarenteed right of our country's founding document the constitution. HOW DARE THEY??? HOW DARE THEY DISGRACE THOSE MEN WHO HAVE DIED FOR OUR RIGHTS TO EXPRESS OURSELVES AGAINST OUR GOVERNMENT BY DOING THAT WHICH THOSE MEN AND WOMEN HAVE DIED TO PRESERVE.

Oh wait. I should check my irony at the door. Let me state clearly: I think those who burn the flag are honoring the men and women who have died to protect our freedom to do so. Otherwise, these deaths are in vain and are worthless. The Bill of Rights is there to protect that which is unpopular. Duh.

There really is nothing quite like witnessing a tribal allegience in all its glorious rage.

The comments made by both sides of the parties seem strong.

Every cloud has a silver lining.

Something good may come out of it all, regardless of which side we are standing on, I guess.

Hi Playgirl,

I could not agree with you more on flag-burning and burning our beautiful flag I absolutely do see as an atrocity at best. However, I also have to admit that it is precisely due to our Constitution and Bill of Rights that allows for such freedom of expression, however ugly it may be and however much we may disagree with such expression, that makes the United States unique in the world for the freedom we have here. I hate seeing the flag getting burned by anyone, I also wish we did not have skinheads, the KKK and other ugly things here but we do. On the other hand at least in this Republic anyone is able to say or do anything (speaking about reasonable expression and not violent expression) and for that I thank the gods above every day for the privilege of being born American.

The flag may be a symbol, but it is also a piece of cloth, and to destroy a flag does not do damage to that which it represents. You'll remember that burning the flag is also considered by many the best or only proper way of retiring an aging flag. It all comes down to motivation.

To those who would burn the flag in protest, I say you waste your time. If hate is your motivation, then I ask why you are still here and not somewhere else. I ask as well why you stand idly by and burn a thing of cloth that can be purchased in quantity at any retail outlet, rather than doing something more effective. You might argue that by making a statement via the burning of a flag in protest, that you are making a difference by making people think. And on that point, I believe you simply wrong. If the audience is really so freely in the grip of their emotions that the burning of the flag would infuriate them, then your message is missed for their rage. And if the audience is of the calm and listening sort, they see nothing but a piece of burning cloth, with no distinct message behind it. If you are to make a difference in a peaceful fashion, you must make your message more clear and draw attention to it in a way that does not enrage. No single action can change the mind of another, but if carefully planned, you can motivate someone to rethink their beliefs and perhaps join you in yours. To burn the flag in protest is an ineffective approach to persuasion, a wasted effort that does nothing more than infuriate or make bored those that behold it.

-The DonutMan