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The enclosed is what I BELIEVE!

A few months ago, I wrote my views on this topic and almost had my head bitten of because I seemed to have offended a few. I stated that I would never again give my opinions on any controvercial topics. Sorry, but I WILL continue to give my opinions on this very troubling issue. I am not ashamed of being an American nor for remaining loyal to President Bush. The enclosed is what I BELIEVE. I don't want anyone giving their input as to my knowledge on spelling and history. I will typed EXACTLY what I feel. I am not concerned about looking at a dictionary, I'm a BAD speller and my english leaves much to be desired. You have your right to your opinions and I respect them, BUT I also have a right to my own!



I wrote this in my journal yesterday:
I am afraid. Tomorrow is March 17, 2003, Black Monday, the day when we'll find out if there's going to be a war or not.

I feel that nothing is going to stop it from happening. God be with our heroic troops, this country and President Bush.


This is what this person wrote about my above journal entry:
You forgot something!... God be with all the innocent civilian people of Iraq who might be in the way of USA bombs if your "great" country invades. Add the count (if there comes to war in Iraq) to those BIG numbers of innocent civilian people the US army killed in Afghanistan lately. Innocent people, with no weapons in their hands. The body count will surpass the number of innocent people killed September 11 in USA bigtime, it already did in Afghanistan but who cares about that in America? Did the news ever report about how many bombs were misfired and accidentally killed civilian people? I think not.

The big question for people like you who dont stand up for PEACE is... are American lives worth more than other nationalities? Answer: No. God isnt taking one side in a war, people will die on both sides. Remember these words Miss CareForDogsMoreThanHerBestFriends, they may change the world soon. "The biggest threat right now, to world peace, is President Bush" No use discussing it, because no matter how much most people dont like Saddam, it is not Iraq who wants to initiate a war that may evolve into World War 3. It is the US President who wants to invade Iraq and start the bloodshed. This may come as a surprise to people who live in the USA, but people outside USA gets a heap more unbiased facts about this situation. Including US attempts at creating FALSE evidence to motivate war. Disgusting!! The US government is not playing on a much higher level than the Iraq dictatorship. I say put Saddam and Bush in a boxing ring and let them fight each other to death if they want. That would save all the innocent people on both sides and avoid billions in costs to the USA. The war is expected to cost about 800 BILLION DOLLARS. The US economy is already in a CRISIS, have fun paying the bills in the future.


THIS IS MY REPLY TO YOU ANNONOMOUS:

Of course there's concern for the innocent dying in Iraq, should there be war. BUT, American's priority is America. Saddam Hussein has proven to be a man without word or scuples. When President Bush SENIOR attacked, Saddam waved the white flag in surrender, when things became a bit too rough for him. He promised to abide by all that was expected of him. Just as soon as Bush brought our troops back, he started doing what he had promised NOT to do in the agreement. Bush should not have withdrawn until Saddam was down. When this coward saw that things were getting too dangerous for him, he hid behind warehouses where his innocent men women and children were in.

This man has done atrocities for YEARS to Americans, both on land and sea. He and bin Laden have cost Americans billions through their terrorist attacks. Don't you dare tell me that Saddam is a peace loving man. He's a terrorist and if he is not stopped this time, by Americans retreating, he will become an even bigger threat in years to come. Since the Gulf War, he has advanced his development weapons for mass destruction. He should of been stopped back then.

I will never forget how I saw those people, dancing in the streets. I'll never EVER forget one woman in particular, wagging her tongue in an elated chant at the deaths of so many Americans. It sickened me at seeing them burning the American flag, and stuffed dummys that were supposed to be President Bush and Americans! How sickening their happiness at the death of all the INNOCENT Americans (WHO DIDN'T HAVE WEAPONS IN THEIR HANDS ) that were murdered on 9 11. That WAS murder! Should there be war, their people will be for-warned. That sure is a hell of a lot more than the warning they gave Americans on 9 11. Believe me that with each American soldier casualty, you won't need to place a hanky in their hand to wipe their tears!

Charity begins at home. They wouldn't give it a second thought if they had the power to obliterate ALL Americans. I, as many, do want PEACE, but there comes a time when war is the only answer to preserve peace. And should Saddam deside to stay in Iraq, then this is the time. The lives of Americans changed BIG TIME on 9 11. Americans must act now, not so much for ourselves, but for the benefit of future generations. What a change from the day of 9 11, when their hatred for Americans was in plain view. NOW, they are picketing throughout the streets with signs stating that they don't want war. Why? Because they saw what happened to the Taliban in Afghanistan!!! America is the most powerful country in the world. It didn't become so by past generations sitting on their asses. What an insult to the MULTITUDE who have fought and died for this country, to bad mouth it.

I've noticed how Saddam has changed from combat attire to suit and tie. How funny he should do this now. The man keeps crying wolf. He's playing the harmless man NOW, because he sees that President Bush is not a man to play cat and mouse with. He sees that Bush is dead serious this time and there will not be a repeat of the times when Bush Senior was president. What I believe is that Saddam is counting on is to buy time by portraying the man for peace. I do believe that his plans are to play innocent and wait for re-election. Should President Bush lose, he of course, will hope a WIMP of a president will be elected. THEN he will start his terrorist attacks all over again. And don't you dare say that the man isn't the KING of terror to the entire world!!

You demean me for placing our soldiers, President and America in God's care. You say God will not be with us but instead with all the innocent civilians of Iraq. BULL SHIT! AMERICA is a country who the majority believes in God. Iraq has their own god. OF COURSE, "People like me" put more value to American lives and America. OF COURSE, people will die on both sides. This is what war is all about, this is what war has been all about since the beginning of time. And don't forget for once second that it WAS NOT PRESIDENT BUSH, but Saddam Hussien and bin Laden who started the bloodshed. These guys don't play by the rules of war. They play dirty. If Saddam Hussein slaughters his own people, what can we expect.

You say "the war will cost approximately 800 billion dollars, that our economy is already in a crisis, and for us to have fun paying for the bills". I say this to you: GLADLY! we Americans will pay the bill because there comes a time when FREEDOM is worth a hell of lot more than MONEY! Also, the terroist attacks of 9 11 was the culprit for the state of our economy, NOT President Bush.

Sorry, but I am an American and I love this country dearly and am for anything which will preserve its well-being. I could care less what anyone thinks about me. This is what I believe and nothing is going to change my mind. I am an AMERICAN, I am for AMERICA, I am for our SOLDIERS and I am for PRESIDENT BUSH. I hope that I'm WRONG, but I believe that war is inevitable and I honestly believe that if you are an American, then the time has come to STAND BEHIND OUR PRESIDENT'S DECISION and BEHIND OUR HEROES WHO ARE WILLING TO GIVE THEIR LIVES FOR THIS COUNTRY. They are over there in that God forsaken country and they NEED OUR SUPPORT!

Each and every person on this earth is a world onto himself, this is why we will never get along. You state that I care more for dogs. True, I care more for the children and the animals for they are the TRULY innocent ones. We, the ADULTS are the ones who have made a mess of this world.

For YOU and whomever eles is reading this entry, this link to one of my websites will let you know, EXACTLY how I feel about this BELOVED COUNTRY!


AMERICA

I believe this is a Benito Juarez quote and I believe in it with all the the depth of my being: I'd rather DIE than LIVE on my knees!

I will not delete your entries, no matter how hateful they may be. You have every right to state what your feelings are about this very serious issue, just as I do! By and by, what has happened to American Patriotism?????

I may disagree with what you have to say,
but I will defend to the death
your right to say it.
Voltaire 1694-1778

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belovedcrown
Mar. 17th, 2003 09:47 pm (UTC)
The idiot also forgot to count...
The senseless idiot who responded to your well written and sincere post also forgot to count the number of Iraqi men,women, and children who currently live in fear under Saddam. The ones who are starving under Saddam as he trades the humanitarian rations given to his people for his own supplies. The ones who are tortured and treated lower than dirt or lab animals for the sheer pleasure and/or curiousity of Saddam. The ones who have a choice- stand up in public and vote 100% in a mock election for Saddam, or stand up in public and voice their malcontent and risk their murder and their childrens murder.

The people of Iraq are caught between a rock and a hard place. Currently, they die by the thousands at the hands of their "leader" in brutal tortured ways with no end in site. No mercy on the horizon. Yes, there are going to be some deaths in this war. Senseless deaths of innocents. But when the deaths are over- and they should come quick [we aren't in the habit of slow torture of innocents] there is freedom on the horizon for the citizens of Iraq and peace of mind for the citizens of the USA.

God be with us, our troops, the innocents worldwide. And may God have mercy on Saddam because no other will.

-Jenni
eeecho_42
Mar. 17th, 2003 10:04 pm (UTC)
Nice choice of closing remarks…
...I never realized that it was Voltaire who coined that statement.

As to answer your question, “what has happened to patriotism”, the best speculative answer I can offer is it has been replaced by rhetoric and a shallow sense of nationalism.

We as a nation have grown soft in the head and lost in the heart, forgetting our responsibilities as global power and our accountability as a people. No longer do we strive forward to improve ourselves or improve our world but instead we have become blinded by our own self image believing ourselves to be better, stronger, smarter, incapable of doing wrong. Being wrong. Justified by our own self-righteousness to ignore written doctrines, bypass diplomacy, and destroy current alliances to get what we want when we want it.

I am not surprised that the Europe despises us, South America covets us, Asia looks down on us, Africa begs for our resources, the Middle East sees us as, not just Satan but, the great Satan and Canada keeps sending us all their extra entertainers. For god’s sake we’ve managed to piss off the whole planet in the past four years. Not that we were really all that popular to begin with, but, believe it or not, once upon a time we were respected for our innovation, conviction, and our peoples passionate spirit.

By our becoming we have lost the very things that have made us what we are. As a nation we have lost our drive to move forward, and our respect for our diverse pasts. We have grown up and become spoiled by our success, no longer interested in seeking the bold frontiers that still abound just beyond our reach. We have turned, not only in on ourselves, but against our neighbors becoming what we as a people claim to most despise in the world, an oppressive force, an abusive ideal, a bastardized doctrine providing power not to the voice of the many but into the hands a greedy few.

I do believe it is time for us to take back what is rightfully ours. Our voice our power our freedom as a democratic people, the weapon of choice. It is not beyond us, it has not been beyond us since the days our country was founded, we have the technology, we have the knowledge, and we have the resources. With all this it has only gotten easier for us as a people to control our own destiny, thus we have no excuses, yet we have become apathetic, we have lost our interest, our strength, and our rights by giving up our patriotism for a collection of sound bites, a bunch of paper flags, and a lot of misdirected contempt for anything that does not fit within our national ideal.

P.S. Good luck and a safe return to all our people, soldiers and civilians who have been caught up in this world conflict. May you all be home soon.
swan_diggidy
Mar. 19th, 2003 12:50 pm (UTC)
Re: Nice choice of closing remarks…
Wow. This is absolutely amazing. I couldn't have said it better myself. Hell, I couldn't have said it that well to begin with...

Thank you.
No really... - eeecho_42 - Mar. 19th, 2003 10:40 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Nice choice of closing remarks… - fromaway - Mar. 24th, 2003 06:59 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Nice choice of closing remarks… - playgirl - Mar. 28th, 2003 03:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
darkphoenixrisn
Mar. 18th, 2003 12:28 am (UTC)
I am 100% opposed to war against Iraq, but I do agree with the Voltaire quote. Keep on voicing your opinions.
godblossom
Mar. 18th, 2003 04:10 am (UTC)
Heartfelt...thank you.

::peace::

(Anonymous)
Mar. 18th, 2003 04:16 am (UTC)
I dont have time to discuss Iraq here forever, but just to make you think a bit about your opinion. One piece of the journal entry...

"Should there be war, their people will be for-warned. That sure is a hell of a lot more than the warning they gave Americans on 9 11. "

They? There is no SOLID proof that the Iraq dictatorship is linked or supporting Al Qaeda. That is one of the things Bush has told Americans for a long time now, to motivate the huge increase in army funding, and the approaching war. I didnt see Iraq people dancing on the streets after Sept 11, but why not? A lot of people far away over there dont like USA at all. Now then... one thing i have seen recently, is one of Badgads big (they have 6 i think) bomb shelters. During the Gulf War, a lot of civilian people were hiding from US bombs there. What happened? A huge "smart" bomb penetrated the ceiling and killed LOTS of people. So yeah sure... they may be warned about a "great" nation invading their country, but civilian people are not more safe in their bomb shelters than the people were in the WTC towers. In fact, i'd say they are less safe in the bomb shelters than if they'd all cram inside a building in the USA.

WTC was a horrible act, but it DOES NOT motivate the war on Iraq. Do some research on these two words, that's just a part of stuff the Bush administration dont want their supporters to think too closely about.

Wolfovitz (or howerer it's spelled...)
1992

The invasion of Iraq was planned way ahead of Sept 11.

Bin Laden is still hiding someplace.

What message does it send to the rest of the world, when the world "greatest" nation sidesteps NATO, sidesteps INTERNATIONAL LAWS, sidestepd the UN Security Council? I'll tell you what message it sends to BAD people who may want to use it to change the world to suit themselves: If the USA can invade countries and replace governments at will, so can we. Wouldnt it be nice to see China invade a few neighbours to prevent a possible future threat to their peace? There may be others thinking the same way, hey let's all screw the rules that were made to keep the world a peaceful place.

The only thing i can agree with regarding Bush/Blair and the "coalition" is one. Saddam should be sent to the moon with a one way ticket.

Since there is actually no solid proof that Iraq has any weapons of mass destruction, also think about this before you support war as a solution.

* If Saddam actually has no nasty weapons, HOW could he have prevented a war? I mean, USA and UK and a few others keep saying Saddam has them, he has to show them and destroy them. But WHAT IF the US government has other reasons to attack Iraq and the so called intelligence is either weak or CREATED. Well this could become obvious in the near future. I sure hope Saddam doesnt have any nasty weapons, if he does he will now be provoked to use them. But if he doesnt have any such weapons... USA will have a tough time explaining their invasion after the war.

* The US Bush-man says he will take on himself to do the work the UN can not do properly. Not to mention that there is no support for a US led invasion of Iraq in the international laws of war and human rights. The US president has stated he thinks the UN will be useful after the war... to rebuild Iraq. So how creepy is that, USA bombs the hell out of a country without UN approval and then expects the UN to take care of the rebuilding. It's like a teen kid who has a messy room and expects mom to clean it up.
(Anonymous)
Mar. 18th, 2003 04:20 am (UTC)
* Since USA has now decided to go above international laws, i say that puts the Bush administration in the same place as any other country that dont give a shit about such laws. That includes Iraq's dictator, he's one of those nice people that dont care much for the laws of war or human rights. USA should (if it is such a great nation...) lead by setting good examples, not tell the world "we do as we want and think is right, because we have the biggest army". That is total bullshit. All people in the Arab countries who dont like USA and the western world, will hate America even more, if America sends that message out. Wich has been done, in a way. The possible reactions and consequences to this single war are incredible. And they arent incredible in any good way, because the only good thing that can come from an attack on Iraw is that Saddam is replaced by a better government. Everything else that may become the result of war is BAD. Death, destruction, worldwide instability.

Blah blah blah... the truth WILL HURT. War is never a good solution. The Iraq people are NOT waiting happily to get bombs on their heads and get "liberated". Sure a lot of them want Saddam to go away, but NOT THE WAY BUSH HAS DECIDED.

America is always right, the good guys, the heroes. Yeah right... Screw Bush.

In the UK? A high ranked minister simply walked out of the government yesterday and resigned from his duty to show his non-support for Tony Blair. That poor guy is loosing support from his very own people because of the foreign politics of late months. I am no fortuneteller, but you can expect similar things to happen to the Bush man.

Polls said lately (independent report, sent out internationally, not from the Bush Office), 75% of America would support an attack on Iraq IF IT WAS UN SANCTIONED... that is not the case. Now with no UN approval, the same number in your great country, according to the polls, is about 50%. That means about half the population in America are not supporting Bush.

The war on Iraq is not happeing because of Sept 11. And the thousands of Kurds killed are not part of the reason for this war. Also those numbers have nothing to do with what the US army has caused in civilian casualties after Sept 11.


Blah blah blah extreme... enough now, i'm outta here and I will not stumble into this journal again. Let's just say that the International opinion will MOST LIKELY turn harshly against USA in the near future. No country may, or can, set aside the rest of the world and claim to be the World Police without wide support. A "World Police" with little or nonexistant support, is... well you figure it out yourself. But dont accept anything the freakin' TV tells you. Dont even accept anything and everything your President tells you.

By the way, there is ONE GOD. No matter what people call him. GOD IS NOT PROMOTING OR ENDORSING VIOLENCE.
eeecho_42
Mar. 18th, 2003 09:14 am (UTC)
Why do people post Anonymously...
...Doesn't it act as a first strike against their credibility since they don't believe in what they say enough to stand up and be accountable for saying it in the first place???
Re: Why do people post Anonymously... - (Anonymous) - Mar. 18th, 2003 11:34 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Why do people post Anonymously... - (Anonymous) - Mar. 18th, 2003 11:56 am (UTC) - Expand
Yes, and no... - eeecho_42 - Mar. 18th, 2003 04:28 pm (UTC) - Expand
kalisphoenix
Mar. 18th, 2003 07:45 am (UTC)
A Courteous Disagreement.
Wow. A little comment turned into a long post... I just left it in my journal.
rcr203
Mar. 18th, 2003 12:23 pm (UTC)
Patriotism...
I believe this was said, but.. Patriotism does not mean blindly following leaders through the woods or over cliffs.

I've commented enough on this topic elsewhere, but specific to your comments, I offer this:

I can't understand why people link September 11 and Iraq. I can't understand why people link anti-war with not supporting our troops, or not keeping a strong military.

I can't understand how people can belive the world is so simple that they can make these broad generalizations, deductions and conclusions, that they accept at face value what is on their favorite news channel (favorite because that weatherman is so kooky funny!), and believe what their politicians say without offering any concrete proof of anything.

As for the money angle - can I get my taxes back from last year? I don't want to pay for the war, but I promise to use the money instead to pay for the eductaion of my kids. You go ahead and spend your money the way you want. Thanks.
eeecho_42
Mar. 18th, 2003 04:38 pm (UTC)
My money...
...Would most likely be used (If I had a choice) for your children's education too. In fact, all our money should be going toward education instead of acts of war. After which our money would probably be well used in improving the counties transit infrastructure so we wouldn't have to reliy on so many non-replenish-able resources. Then planned communities to improve social interaction and diversity in our culture. Followed by some space exploration, perhaps an attempt or two with colonization to start harnessing the resources of the solar system-

OH DEAR GOD, I'm a patriotic republican suddenly turned grass roots hippy! Shoot me please... But not until after I've given all my money away for a good cause.
thelittledeath
Mar. 18th, 2003 05:08 pm (UTC)
A Quick Message from God:
Hiya. Just talked to God.

He said that anybody who kills little kids is in serious trouble in the karma department, no matter who told them to do it.
lissakat
Mar. 19th, 2003 10:38 am (UTC)
Re: A Quick Message from God:
yep, God told me same thing.
Damn... - eeecho_42 - Mar. 19th, 2003 10:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Damn... - lissakat - Mar. 19th, 2003 10:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
crzybtch
Mar. 18th, 2003 11:27 pm (UTC)
hi...i found ur LJ when I was browsing through similar interests.

I don't support Bush, or what he's doing, or unprovoked war in general. But I think you did a good job writing your side of the story, and that you, like everyone, have a right to your opinion.

Also, about the economic recession...history shows that the economy rises after wars...look at the great depression->ww1->"normal" economy.

Just food for thought :)
rehab_doll
Mar. 19th, 2003 08:16 am (UTC)
i just randomly found your journal and i think you voiced your opinion well and this is your journal so people dont really have the right to come and flame u about it. I totally disagree with u :o) but i dont know u and so to make any judgements about that would be bad. i do like arguing (in a friendly way tho)

it does worry me that your country hasn't signed up to the International Criminal Court though, especially as the Bush administration are convinced this action is the right action, if this is true why havn't they signed?
raddy
Mar. 30th, 2003 01:06 am (UTC)
"Our country" has in the past been a strong supporter of terrorism in Central and South America. We continue in that still, thus the ICC is seen as a threat to our interests. (I have my own opinions, but this is intended as a neutral observation, not as a statement pro or con about state-supported terrorism.)
flutterfly
Mar. 19th, 2003 10:51 am (UTC)
wow. I commend your courage to say this. God bless.

(just wandered in, *hugs* Flutterfly)
pandorya
Mar. 20th, 2003 01:20 am (UTC)
You don't know me, but I found your journal while searching for people with similar interests to my own. I am so happy to have found an entry that takes the words from my mind and puts them on a page! I am in FULL support of President Bush, of America and their supporting allies. I am Canadian, and although we are in different countries, I follow your news and your country more then my own o.O Our news is boring anyways, we seem to be the lap dog of the world and it is embarasses me. At least your leader has the balls to stand up and do what NEEDS to be done!! GO BUSH! I am so happy to see a leader FINALLY take a stand and see it to the finish! Saddam has wreaked to much havoc and chaos on this earth, and it is high time he gets taken out. I just can't wait to see the people of Iraq FREE!! And the treat gone. It is so nice to see the people of Iraq on CNN (which I watch ALL THE TIME o.O) smiling, and rooting for America and Bush. Granted not all are doing that, but alot of them are. And it makes me smile to think that soon, they will finally have free lives to live, and their children will not be forced to starve. There was a startling fact on CNN today, Saddam has killed over a million people in his 40 year reign, by himself, or by personal orders to his "personal servents". That made my eyes swell with tears of hatred. You have in me, a person totally on your side. I comend your strength to see things from this angle. *hug*
neilrobertson
Mar. 20th, 2003 12:27 pm (UTC)
Well said.
There's so much morally-relativistic garbage going around right now, particularly in the UK, that I find your comments quite refreshing.

Not sure about the animals though, a dog bit me once.

;-D
incubuslover
Mar. 20th, 2003 10:05 pm (UTC)
Amazing
Hi...I just wanted to say that your post was amazing. Everything that you said was worded very well. I do not like war but I will support our troops and I will support the journalists that are out there giving us the news.

Saddam is a monster and yes this should have been dealt with a very long time ago.

Very Very well said!
fromaway
Mar. 24th, 2003 07:01 am (UTC)
I just can't wait to see the people of Iraq FREE!!

Judging by America's track record in the Middle East, you may be waiting a long time.
gracenotesamba
Mar. 24th, 2003 04:32 pm (UTC)
I completely understand where you are coming from and I respect your opinion.
nyarbaggytep
Mar. 28th, 2003 02:20 pm (UTC)
I have to say I am gobsmacked.
You appear to believe very firmly in what you are told.

I totally agree that you have the right to do that, but I would invite you to perhaps question things a little more. I am aware that I hold a pretty diametrically opposed view to yours, but I like to think that I am openminded enough to debate things, and change my mind if sufficient evidence shows that I am wrong. Can you do the same? Will you debate this with me?

No link between Saddam and Bin Laden has been credibly shown - if you can prove me wrong I'll be most interested to hear/see. In fact my understanding of it is that they have very different beliefs. There are many different sorts of Muslims. Show me why you believe Saddam is King of Terror.

And if you really believe that 9-11 was the cause of all America's financial woes, then fair enough. I would like to offer you this as food for thought... America has been importing some 60% of its annual oil consumption, and the troubles in Venezuala have threatened that supply. I believe America's (elected?) president is interested in "energy security" not terrorism.

The people who commited the horrific attack on 9-11 were not Iraqis.

And when it comes to patriotism and nationalism, what do they really mean? I would consider myself a patriotic Brit, but I still believe that Blair is wrong in getting involved in Iraq. Not because Saddam is innocent - he's not, he is a very evil man. But there are many leaders in the world who defy international law - how come Resident Bush is not interested in them? I would suggest that they do not have the worlds largest remaining oil fields in their countrys.

I believe the reasons we are being given for this war are lies - if it was really about removing Saddam, why the rush? Why not go with the UN? Why do something illegitimately when the opportunity exists to do so legitimately?

Anyway, I hope you will get a chance to respond to this. And I hope you can understand that I totally agree with the Voltaire quote.

And because you accuse Saddam of not playing fair - here is a list of times I think America could be accused of the same. Source
1953: U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran. U.S. installs Shah as dictator.
1954: U.S. overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed.
1963: U.S. backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.
1963-1975: American military kills 4 million civilians in Southeast Asia.
September 11, 1973: U.S. stages coup in Chile. Democratically elected president Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered.
1977: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed.
1980's: U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billion.
1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras". 30,000 Nicaraguans die.
1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.
1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to help them kill Iraqis.
1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. U.S. invades Panama and removes Noriega. 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties
1990: Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from U.S.
1991: U.S. enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.
1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.
1991 to present: American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis. U.N. estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.
2000-01: U.S. gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in "aid".
September 11, 2001: Osama Bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000 people.
playgirl
Mar. 29th, 2003 04:40 pm (UTC)
nyarbaggytep
I'm sorry you had to work so hard "not to erupt in a rage" and that you find my "beliefs totally sickening." And as for the "sarcastic" stuff, you shouldn't of bothered to delete them, I'm not easily offended.

The derogatory comments which have been made about me are child's play.

I must admit, I was quite surprised to find how you made fun of me in yours and others journals. I just didn't expect that from you. You may rest assured that I will be up-front with you and whatever disagreement I may have with you, I will let YOU know.

When I read your views in my journal, I did not re-act in the way you did, but read with respect and an open mind, your feelings on these issues. You say that I believe very firmly in what I'm told. Yes I do, just you believe firmly what you are told. And please bare in mind that I am not the enemy.

Your friend "fromaway" says that with people like me, she'd prefer to "just hit and run" or pay someone to kick me in the head because of my "totally loathsome views." If she has to pray to "Jesus Murphy" 'cause she finds me "scary" then she has a big problem. Funny, I'm not surprised at all, at her violently hateful and vindictive outbursts toward me.

I will soon prepare my rebuttal, but I must first make something very clear. My comments about freedom of speech have been greatly misconstrued. I AM totally for freedom of speech, and for freedom to demonstrate publically our political views. What I am AGAINST is VIOLENT American demonstrators throwing rocks at police, breaking windows, looting, urinating on sidewalks, breaking fire hydrants, blocking those who have to get to work, starting fires and BURNING OUR AMERICAN FLAG. Our right to demonstrate is supposed to be conducted in a peaceful, non-violent manner.

Thank God for freedom of speech, these are one of the many reasons our BRAVE men and women are placing their lives on the line for. What I've tried to express IS that we are now at war. No amount of demonstration is going to stop this fact. I feel that all Americans should Unite and stand behind our troops. I REPEAT, I am for freedom of speech and demonstration! I am against VIOLENT demonstrations! And PLEASE don't hate me because I remain loyal to America, President Bush and our brave troops!
sexylegsplaygirl.com
Re: nyarbaggytep - raddy - Mar. 30th, 2003 01:12 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: raddy - playgirl - Mar. 30th, 2003 02:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: nyarbaggytep - nyarbaggytep - Mar. 30th, 2003 07:13 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: nyarbaggytep - playgirl - Mar. 30th, 2003 02:29 pm (UTC) - Expand
pax_draconis
Mar. 28th, 2003 06:55 pm (UTC)
Patriotism, surely, is loyalty to, and belief in, an ideal, as defined by a national ethic? Patriots are those who are loyal not to a government - governments come and go - but to the ideal behind them - in the case of the US (and I'm from what was so disparagingly referred to as "Old Europe") the constitution, and the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? "And freedom for all"?

It is not unpatriotic to oppose, with your views, your protest and your actions - within the law - the actions of a government when, within your view, that government is acting in a way contrary to the spirit of the nation they are supposed to govern. Indeed, to claim it is "unpatriotic" or worse "unAmerican" to express your views when those views differ from the governments smacks to me of the worst excesses of McCarthyism. Surely the American spirit is all about freedom to say such things? Not just when it is "convenient" or "politically acceptable".

Our troops are in the Gulf now. I wish they weren't, and I think the war is ethically and morally unsupportable, and like a lot of Brits, I am taking a stand and saying so through protest, through lobbying my MP, through forums like this. But that doesn't mean I don't support our troops, and hope they come home having done as bloodless and efficient a job as they can. They are doing what they are trained to, and what they have been ordered to by politicians. So, I support them, while opposing the reason they were sent. Am I unpatriotic for not supporting my duplicitous government?

I don't think so. And many of the Americans I know through this forum tend to hold similar views of their own government. The moral high ground, if ever there was such a thing, is long gone. This is an invasion of conquest for complex reasons, and none of them have to do with altruism.

There are going to be a lot of heroes out in Iraq in the coming weeks among our forces. There are no heroes in 10 Downing Street, and there are no heroes in the White House. To pretend there are is naivete.
fromaway
Mar. 28th, 2003 07:11 pm (UTC)
I don't see how it's unpatriotic to protest the actions of the current government of one's country. Because, as I've said, you know, it's the current government. It's not permanent. If you like Bush, you must have opposed Clinton on a number of points, right?
nevermind6794
Mar. 28th, 2003 07:23 pm (UTC)
Look, it's the top result in my "similar interests" search...whoo...

I'm God. Anyone that says I told them anything is a liar.

And yeah, patriotism doesn't necessarily mean supporting the war. It means using your freedoms granted by the government (or to all humans, depending on how broadly you interpret the Constitution) to try and make things better. If that means disagreeing with the government's actions, so be it. You don't have to block roads and entrances (like some stupid anti-war protestors are doing), but I think you get the point.
probablyscotty
Mar. 29th, 2003 02:43 am (UTC)
Having rights doesn't mean exercising them, or that when you do your viewpoints are leant credence by your rights.

Supporting the overthrowing of Saddam Hussein doesn't mean supporting this war or believing for a moment the rationale that's been put forward.

Supporting the troops doesn't mean agreeing with what they're being asked to do.

Blame is easily lain, and politicians love nothing more than Bad Guys(tm) who can divert attention from internal problems and unite the country against a common enemy.

And lo, did Moses come down from the mountain and say "You! Thy dress sense offends me and thy ways are strange and so my people shall persecute you for your difference and thus shall they not notice my frilly knickers!"
probablyscotty
Mar. 29th, 2003 06:50 am (UTC)
Devil's Advocate
Minor statistic for the last conflict, one that was very well suppressed by the media both at the time and afterwards.

UN casualties : 72
Iraqi casualties : 150,000
littleonions
Mar. 29th, 2003 10:48 am (UTC)
Francois Marie Arouet
..Spent more than a couple of nights in prison for being 'unpatriotic' about his government, his king and the church, I think you might term him a 'commie peacemonger'
He was beaten on several occasions by 'patriotic' people for suggesting that the rule of law applied to everyone, not just the poor or those of a different religion.
I don't need to give you a history lesson about the chap, but suffice to say, you use one of his (alledged) quotes, to justify your stance and thus give some credance to the man and his philosophy. If that is the case then I entreate you to examine his works further, and also perhaps examine the real reasons for this horrible war. It is very limiting to say nothing can change your mind,about anything really.

'Those who can make you believe absurdities
can make you commit atrocities'- FM Arouet

tigron_x
Mar. 29th, 2003 08:05 pm (UTC)
Enjoy:
Awesome posts and awesome comments...

I try not look at things as right or wrong because it hinders our minds to learn do to the fact that no one person can see every dimension of life. In saying that, that indirectly states no one person nor one government will ever be right. Or lets get to the basis of that thought, to be perfect. No one government order will ever be perfect. Government is made up of people whose ruling is consisted of people. As you know, I'm not perfect, you're not perfect, and no one person or a group of people we know is perfect. Why? Because we don't know everything, and on top of that, we sin. Even the combined thought of every man and woman into one body, dead and alive, wouldn't even begin to comprehend the infinite vastness of the dimensions of life. Because, that combined effort would still only be a few dimensions. There is more to life then just our existence even though we tend to just focus on ourselves and our many personal details. The God that unconditionally LOVES everyone created us and is the only one who will ever truely complete us. We live in HIS Kingdom. The beautiful thing about that is that God will never give up on us until we are completed in his likeness. After that, welcome to heaven. All we have to do is simply shift our focus from ourselves to the Kingdom of God and build a relationship with him through learning about HIS sons and daughters. Especially about the one who set us all free. The one true patriot, Our Lord and Savior, who is correlating HIS army to bring justice to the one Kingdom of God.

Every battle fought and every war fought inside and out for righteousness with a true righteous cause, as is the War in Iraq, is a fight to expose the evil that has plagued life for far too long. As the evil that plagues life, of course, there are going to be evils that plague each person, each country and it's government, as well as a one world government/order/organization because Man still sins everyday and of course Man is far from perfect to be able to handle such a task. You dont believe me? Read your posts and comments again. We point out each rightous cause and each evil sin to each other. Basically pinning ourselves against each other and seperating ourselves. Then soon, we fight over it as our emotions get the best of us. What I'm getting at is, until God's army comes to bring justice to the evilness that plagues HIS Kingdom, we will either be the warriors that some of us are, or the slaves to the blind confusion and evilness that the Evil Spirit infects in us so that we destroy each other into oblivion like little puppets in his sinister cause.

The good thing is that everything is going to work out fine. Remember that everytime you see the sun in the morning because all that means is God is still working in your favor. No matter how hard things get, or how much confusion there is around you, God is always there working for you in your favor wether you can feel HIM, hear HIM, or see HIM. For HE is far beyond our senses and comprehension.
tigron_x
Mar. 29th, 2003 08:06 pm (UTC)
Re: Enjoy:

Like I said at the beginning, I dont know everything, so I'm sure more could be added to all of this. I know God is bringing us justice and taking care of us while we wait because that is what a loving Father does. We as men are expected to guide, govern, and guard life while we are here on Earth as our women support us through the cause. We must come up with ways to do this to best of our abilities and teach the rightous cause to future generations as well as our victories to keep our focus on God and His Kingdom, so we do not become slaves to evil or succumb to its destructive force. Our lives are only a vapor of a moment in ratio to the eternal vastness of life. In referance to the War in Iraq, all the wars before, and all those to come, every soldier that gives his/her life in righteousness to the cause that is bestowed before us in guiding, guarding, and governing life here in this world exhaulting our Father, and He who cannot lie keeps his word and opens His gates for them. As well as to the citizens who also have accepted Jesus Christ as his/her Lord and Savior. Those who haven't, I don't know what happens. If it concerns you, go save people and introduce them to Jesus Christ. I do know God does love them and will take care of them as he takes care of you and me. The fortunate citizens who do survive are the ones who will have a task to build a grander prosperous Iraq with an interdependent government of free people who will be asked to help guide, govern, and guard life for the righteousness of God.

Until God's army brings justice to His Kingdom or I full fill my purpose here and it is time for me to go, I will support any righteous act, such as the War on Saddam and his followers, to the fullest extent to help expose any evil that effects life into the light of God. As for the President of the country I was born into and greatly choose to be part of in its growth and strength to honor God, I do my best to support each President that is elected as well as do my best to help expose the evils in this nation and the world if at all possible in my power. I am a son of God in the Kingdom of God before I am an American so before any course of action in my life is taken I make sure it is alligned with God's word because my relationship with HIM is the most important thing in life.

No matter what happens, God loves you and me, so we will all be taken care of and brought back home.

in Jesus's name, Amen...
Re: Enjoy: - fromaway - Apr. 4th, 2003 02:29 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Enjoy: - tigron_x - Apr. 11th, 2003 01:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
playgirl
Mar. 29th, 2003 08:31 pm (UTC)
tigron_x
Thank you for your post. You are a breath of fresh air. How I envy your faith!
tigron_x
Mar. 29th, 2003 09:02 pm (UTC)
Re: tigron_x
*smile* Have as much of it as you want.

really cool journal btw...
Re: tigron_x - raddy - Mar. 30th, 2003 01:27 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: tigron_x - tigron_x - Mar. 30th, 2003 10:37 am (UTC) - Expand
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